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For a Few Dollars Less [WSJ: Illegals lower wages]
The Wall Street Journal ^ | April 18, 2006 | George J. Borjas

Posted on 04/17/2006 11:07:47 PM PDT by Plutarch

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WSJ is a pay website, so Bugmenot won't work.

Illegals make it only A Few Dollars Less for those poor saps, says the WSJ. But it redistributes to us elites!!! The greater poverty and unemployment of low skill Americans will be made up with transer payments from the taxpayers, who will also pay for the illegals. The employers get to keep the profit!! Sounds like a terrific plan to the WSJ.

1 posted on 04/17/2006 11:07:49 PM PDT by Plutarch
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To: Plutarch

Will the illegals be as attractive when they are legal? Or, as I suspect, we will have millions more legals and a new crop fo illegals to replace them.


2 posted on 04/17/2006 11:22:53 PM PDT by umgud (12 gauge, the original pepper spray)
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To: Plutarch

Another factor to consider is that it gets worse with time. If there was a set number of illegals, eventually the wages of those illegals would increase ( trickle down effect) and that would determine that the citizen wages for these jobs would increase as well but the illegal employer will not need to give his illegals a raise because there is a never ending flow of new illegals to take their place and accept slave wages.


3 posted on 04/17/2006 11:24:12 PM PDT by Jim_Curtis
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To: Jim_Curtis

4 posted on 04/17/2006 11:34:13 PM PDT by seastay
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To: Plutarch
Higher profits means higher rates of taxation for the employers. Sorry but the Anti Business Big Govt Socialists class warfare rhetoric being pushed by the Anti Illegals are nonsense.

Stick to the security aspects, the morality aspect or the Cost of immigration to Govt aspect. All the Anti Illegals buy themselves with these Leftist propaganda claims is scorn from fiscal Conservatives.

Economically the claims being made about illegals are pure manufactured BS. Wages are significantly up. Unemployment is at 4.7%. Illegals slow how fast unskilled wages go up, they have not decreased them. Making these sorts of fraudulent Labor Unions paid for propganda claims HURTS the cause. The case can be made on facts, there is nothing to be gained from these manufactured data claims.

Basing the argument on phony data damages the credibility of all the people on the Anti Illegals side. Since I know the claims made here are untrue, I have to wonder how much else being presented by the Anti Illegals spokespeople like Lou Dobbs is manufactured Socialist propaganda pretending to be "fact".

5 posted on 04/17/2006 11:45:59 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (The Democrat Party. For those who value slogans over solutions.)
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To: Jim_Curtis
Zero sum fallacy. With 4.7% Unemployment wages are going up. If the mythology being pushed by the Lou Dobbs style Neo-Socialist were true, we would have no wage increased.

Yet the average non manufacturing wage is up almost $2.00 over the last 3 years. The economic pie keeps getting bigger. It a Zero Sum Fallacy to assume one size pie so that an increase in A means b must decrease. Nope. It is possible for A and B to grow. There is no factually honest economic argument against illegals. It's all based on manufactured half truths, wild guesses and unverified assumptions. Illegals are just the scape goat being blamed for the failure of people in states like California to control their state Govt. an aging population and massive improvements in technology. World wide there is a decreasing number of low skills jobs. Technological improvements mean you can do more with fewer people.

Blaming all the costs for a changing Economy on Illegals, as this author try is intellectually dishonest. There are a number of factors. Simply hating the illegals will not cure the Anti Illegals crowds blues. You are reaping what your state Govts sowed with their spending bindges in the 1990s. Illegals are part of the problem but not the cause. You all created a Govt system that simply needed too large increase in funding every year to be substained. You can reduce pressure by reducing population growth but it will not go away.

6 posted on 04/17/2006 11:56:33 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (The Democrat Party. For those who value slogans over solutions.)
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To: MNJohnnie
"Unemployment is at 4.7%"

More BS.

As I pointed out to you on another thread recently...once a person gets his last unemployment check...per orders of GWB..he statistically vanishes off the radar screen.

A quote directly from you on post #73 in this thread

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1616779/posts?q=1&&page=51

"Using manufactured statistic to lie is still a lie. "



It's OK for you to use manufactured statistics but evidently no one else here on FR can?

Is this like some "protectionist" method you use?

What happened to the "free trade" of legitimate facts?


lol
7 posted on 04/18/2006 2:14:03 AM PDT by taxed2death (A few billion here, a few trillion there...we're all friends right?)
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To: taxed2death

It is a myth that unemployment stats do not account for long term unemployed who no longer collect checks. Anyway, in Florida and NY there are help wanted signs everywhere. I was recently housing a woman who had not worked in 10 years, She was hired the first place that she applied. They worked her 8 straight days into overtime the first week, because they are short on staff.


8 posted on 04/18/2006 3:30:03 AM PDT by ClaireSolt (.)
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To: Plutarch
1st -- realize that this is a contributed editorial from Robert Scrivner @ Harvard... Also, just because wages may not be seemingly impacted, since some legal citizen is not working at all AND the wage is lower the overall impact should be worse just by simple averages... You just have to include the Legal that isn't working at a wage of 0$/hr... Their study doesn't seem to factor this in...

Also, to be fair to the author I think you are miscaracterizing the conclusion a bit... Re-Read the last paragraph..:

National wage trends confirm the common-sense notion that immigration has labor market consequences: A larger pool of competing workers lowers relative wages. This does not imply that immigration is a net loss for the economy. After all, the wage losses suffered by workers show up as higher profits to employers and, eventually, as lower prices to consumers. Immigration policy is just another redistribution program. In the short run, it transfers wealth from one group (workers) to another (employers). Whether or not such transfers are desirable is one of the central questions in the immigration debate.

The republican failure of rhetoric in this debate up till now has been that they basically concede that illegal immigration is a victimless crime, where it's true victims are America's poor.

If the govt is going to tax/regulate the living hell out of businesses then allowing illegals to fill in the gap and undercut American workers is not fair. If companies had to deduct payroll taxes and comply with all federal regs it would 'increase the cost' of illegal labor. Paying an American citizen under the table is called evading taxes, paying an illegal under the table is considered 'rational???'...

I am almost to the point where I would like to see the govt offer to pay a bounty (say 1/2 the fine per worker) to any lawyer which uncovers a company that is guilty of fueling this fire. Take the remainder of the fine and give it to ICE. The bureaucracy would then feed itself... We should all remember that much of this is supply side driven...

9 posted on 04/18/2006 3:59:34 AM PDT by max_rpf
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To: max_rpf

miscaracterizing = mischaracterizing


10 posted on 04/18/2006 4:04:09 AM PDT by max_rpf
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To: umgud

Sounds like the employers could care less if they are "legal" or illegal they are a equal opportunity employer. They have found that they won't be prosecuted regardless of how they hire these people and how they pay them.

They aren't afraid of the big bad IRS because they have gotten away with not paying taxes for so long. There is obviously a underground employment going on and Americans are NOT welcome to apply!!


11 posted on 04/18/2006 4:18:18 AM PDT by stopem (Head to the border and plug the leak!)
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To: ClaireSolt
It is a myth that unemployment stats do not account for long term unemployed who no longer collect checks.

Not Really.
GWB told the Washington bean counters to drop the unemployed from the rolls once they had expended their last comp check.

Oddly enough when you've used your last check you mysteriously vanish from Washington record keeping.
12 posted on 04/18/2006 4:45:03 AM PDT by taxed2death (A few billion here, a few trillion there...we're all friends right?)
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To: Plutarch
I don't know about elsewhere but, in Texas, the average Illegal is making more money than the average unskilled citizen. Neither of these groups are receiving benefits.
13 posted on 04/18/2006 5:30:08 AM PDT by wolfcreek
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To: MNJohnnie
Sorry but the Anti Business Big Govt Socialists class warfare rhetoric being pushed by the Anti Illegals are nonsense.

So it's anti business to restrict the flow of slave labor? You could then argue then that Abraham Lincoln was an "anti business bit govt socialist class warrior".

14 posted on 04/18/2006 6:06:26 AM PDT by Jim_Curtis
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To: MNJohnnie
Economically the claims being made about illegals are pure manufactured BS.

The WSJ is the the most prominent proponent of open borders. Yes, this was a contributed piece, but the WSJ has barely published any anti-illegal pieces. Are you stating the conclusions are invalid? On what basis, that you don't like them?

15 posted on 04/18/2006 7:00:06 AM PDT by Plutarch
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To: max_rpf
1st -- realize that this is a contributed editorial from Robert Scrivner @ Harvard.

Um, first realize that this is a contributed editorial from George Borjas , whose academic title is the Robert W. Scrivner Professor of Economics and Social Policy at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard.

Is he insuffiently qualified to study this issue?

George J. Borjas is the Robert W. Scrivner Professor of Economics and Social Policy. He received his PhD in economics from Columbia. His teaching and research interests focus on the impact of government regulations on labor markets, with an emphasis on the economic impact of immigration. He is the author of Wage Policy in the Federal Bureaucracy; Friends or Strangers: The Impact of Immigrants on the U.S. Economy; Heaven's Door: Immigration Policy and the American Economy; and the textbook Labor Economics. He also edited Immigration and the Work Force;Issues in the Economics of Immigration; and Poverty, International Migration and Asylum. Prior to coming to the Kennedy School, Borjas was a Professor of Economics at the University of California at San Diego. He has been a consultant to various government agencies.

16 posted on 04/18/2006 9:42:12 AM PDT by Turnabout
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To: Turnabout

Is he insuffiently qualified to study this issue?

No, did I say he was?


17 posted on 04/18/2006 5:33:00 PM PDT by max_rpf
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To: Turnabout

Is he insuffiently qualified to study this issue?

No, did I say he was?


18 posted on 04/18/2006 5:33:02 PM PDT by max_rpf
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To: Plutarch

It's interesting that the WSJ would go public and admit this. Sort of pulls the rug out from under the pro-illegal lobby.


19 posted on 04/18/2006 5:38:02 PM PDT by Old_Mil (http://www.constitutionparty.org - Forging a Rebirth of Freedom.)
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To: max_rpf
1st -- realize that this is a contributed editorial from Robert Scrivner @ Harvard... Also, just because wages may not be seemingly impacted... Their study doesn't seem to factor this in...

First you state that we must realize it is from this particular Professor, and second that you nickpick aspects of his study. Sounds like Prof. Borgas sadly lacks max-rpf's unique economic analysis abilities.

20 posted on 04/18/2006 5:41:15 PM PDT by Turnabout
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