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Is Bacterial Resistance to Antibiotics an Appropriate Example of Evolutionary Change?
TrueOrigin Archive ^ | March 28, 2006 | Kevin Anderson, Ph.D.

Posted on 03/28/2006 2:37:59 PM PST by Conservative Coulter Fan

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To: ahayes
Do you agree with the article's analysis of the drugs, mutations and effects of the mutations of the set they did study? Or to be more limiting a question, do you feel that the analysis of the studied set was scientific?

Why would it be *impossible* to overlook the cases in post 12?

Regardless of your opinion as to motive, what does their analysis of bacterial development of antibiotic resistance show -- if you had to rewrite the summary?

81 posted on 03/29/2006 4:09:52 PM PST by bvw
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To: bvw
It's probably all right as far as it goes (after looking for beta-lactamases, MRSA, and vancomycin resistance and not finding them I didn't read it thoroughly). However when the author's premise is that antibiotic resistance comes about only through mutation and loss of function of existing genes or swapping about of preexisting plasmids and they completely ignore major examples of evolutionary innovation that contradicts this premise. . . I'd say that blows the whole thing out of the water.

It would be impossible to ignore MRSA and vancomycin resistance in a study of antibiotic resistance because these are the two antibiotic resistances of major clinical significance today. MRSA renders a wide range of antibiotics ineffective and is commonly transmitted in hospital settings. My grandmother had MRSA cellulitis, which was successfully treated with vancomycin, which is essentially the last line of defense. Now we have vancomycin resistance passing around. Even worse, some vancomycin resistant MRSA strains have been found. At that point you just throw up your hands and hope for good luck, because there's nothing medicine can do.

So you're telling me in their exhaustive research they came across the resistance method for chloramphenicol, which has never had any major clinical use, and somehow overlooked the two most medically significant resistances?? I've read too many of these articles; I'm not feeling that credulous anymore.

Here's a good article discussing the danger of these infections. You'll notice they mention mecA. That is the novel gene I mentioned in my earlier post that came about by the combination of a staph gene with a gene from E. coli.

82 posted on 03/29/2006 7:25:10 PM PST by ahayes
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To: ahayes
"What's your explanation for how this gene just Poof! came into existence? Spontaneous generation?"

One possibility is that the gene existed in nature. And eventually someone was infected with that particular bacteria that had the gene which then got selected for when the antibiotic was used. We probably don't know but a tiny tiny fraction of the bacterial genes that exist in nature.

Of course Song might well be right. It might be a freak occurance where two genes spliced together to create a novel gene.

But I still appreciate the way Song puts it as a "probability" instead of the way evo's seem to always state their case as a certainty.

83 posted on 03/30/2006 12:53:24 AM PST by DannyTN
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To: DannyTN

It's science-speak. Everything is always officially spoken of as uncertain--that's the way science works. Nothing can ever be proven absolutely conclusively, because there could always be some weird off-the-wall explanation that would never occur to you. So we keep testing things over and over again in different situations to make sure that the theory doesn't break down at certain points. Sometimes it does and we know it does, which means the theory is incomplete (for instance, what is inside a singularity?) Probably some of the reason that in debates we state things more firmly than the wording of the literature suggests is to combat this idea of lack of confidence on the part of science regarding evolution that stems from a misunderstanding of the language of science.

For some reason creationists have no trouble recognizing Arcaeraptor as two different fossils stuck together, but presented with a gene that is obviously two different genes stuck together their discernment evaporates. ;-) Evolution utilizes such freak occurances--gene duplications (not so rare), chromosomal inversions, gene splicing, gene theft, and fortuitous polyploidy. These events can introduce new information into the genome or aid in establishing reproductive isolation.


84 posted on 03/30/2006 3:41:33 AM PST by ahayes
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To: Elsie
Flightless birds are good for what?

Fiesta Emu Burgers

85 posted on 03/30/2006 4:01:02 AM PST by dread78645 (Sorry Mr. Franklin, We couldn't keep it.)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
"However, analysis of the genetic events causing this resistance reveals that they are NOT consistent with the genetic events necessary for evolution (defined as common “descent with modification”). Rather, resistance resulting from horizontal gene transfer merely provides a mechanism for transferring pre-existing resistance genes. Horizontal transfer does NOT provide a mechanism for the origin of those genes. Spontaneous mutation does provide a potential genetic mechanism for the origin of these genes, but such an origin has NEVER been demonstrated. Instead, all known examples of antibiotic resistance via mutation are INCONSISTENT with the genetic requirements of evolution. These mutations result in the loss of pre-existing cellular systems/activities, such as porins and other transport systems, regulatory systems, enzyme activity, and protein binding. Antibiotic resistance may also impart some DECREASE of “relative fitness” (severe in a few cases), although for many mutants this is compensated by reversion. The real biological cost, though, is LOSS of pre-existing systems and activities. Such LOSSES are NEVER compensated, unless resistance is lost, and CANNOT validly be offered as examples of true evolutionary change.


YES! Someone is FINALLY THINKING!

A mutation is a LOSS of INFORMATION.

This insignificant example, magnify it and you'll see that EVOLUTION IS A JOKE! A mutation at best is status quo but NEVER, EVER GAINS INFORMATION.

This small example shows how ABSURD the ENTIRE theory of evolution is. You cannot mutate your way to a sophist iced human being. Of course in the fairy tale of evolution, you are to imagine that ca cell MUTATION has the INTELLIGENCE to KNOW what it needs next to "evolve" into something else - totally ludicrous!
86 posted on 03/30/2006 4:10:28 AM PST by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God) !)
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To: nmh

EXCEPT they IGNORED several examples of the evolution of new gene families imparting resistances. MRSA is about 30 years old, for example, and originated by splicing together two genes from two different species.

Sometimes YEC remind me of those little monkeys--See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil! If the contrary evidence is ignored or buried, does that mean it doesn't exist?


87 posted on 03/30/2006 5:20:40 AM PST by ahayes
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