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{Israeli election] Poll: Kadima on 36 seats, Labor on 18, Likud on 14
Ha'aretz ^ | 26 March 2006 | Yossi Verter

Posted on 03/26/2006 11:34:28 AM PST by anotherview

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To: Honestfreedom

Ale Yarok was only predicted to clear the electoral threshold in one of the last six polls. No, I don't think anyone expects to make a coalition.

You don't get it, do you? I've been railing here for years about the bankrupt, failed ideology of both the left and the far right in Israel. The fact that Kadima stands for just plain old pragmatism, about doing what is right for Israel, that they don't adhere to nor are constrained by any one ideology per se is a *GOOD* thing.

Getting the Arabs outside our borders, having Israel be a Jewish state with an overwhelming Jewish majority, having tight defensible borders... these are all GOOD things.


21 posted on 03/26/2006 9:26:53 PM PST by anotherview ("Ignorance is the choice not to know" -Klaus Schulze)
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To: Salem

Save us from religious idealogs. Get it? My observance is based on culture and tradition, not on a belief that G-d cares how many sets of dishes I have. I am what you would term a secular Jew, and I believe that any government that bases policy on ancient scriptures is doomed to endless bloodshed and war.

Please, don't send me religious sermons. Religious zealotry is what's wrong with the world, and it is the disease that consumes the Arabs with hate.


22 posted on 03/26/2006 9:29:33 PM PST by anotherview ("Ignorance is the choice not to know" -Klaus Schulze)
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To: Piranha
How does Israel's disenfranchasement law work?

Israel does not revoke citizenship, period. That means, as Alouette later admitted, her son had not yet taken Israeli citizenship. Israeli law is pretty much the same as American law: a non-citizen who commits a crime isn't given citizenship and is deported.

23 posted on 03/26/2006 9:31:32 PM PST by anotherview ("Ignorance is the choice not to know" -Klaus Schulze)
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To: Alouette
He was in the process of making aliyah when his request for citizenship was denied because he was arrested at Amona.

Yep, a non-citizen who commits a crime isn't granted citizenship, just like in the United States. Amona was an illegal outpost. There was violent resistance to it being removed. Your son knew what he was doing and will suffer the consequences of his actions.

Oh, and in the U.S. a non-citizen can get citizenship by serving in the military but it isn't automatic. A non-citizen who commits a crime in the U.S. would suffer pretty much the same consequences.

24 posted on 03/26/2006 9:34:13 PM PST by anotherview ("Ignorance is the choice not to know" -Klaus Schulze)
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To: anotherview

How good is the daily shelling that comes from Gaza? How good is the almost total loss of Israeli sovereignty? How many homeless Jews are we going to have? They still have not settled the Jews from Gaza and plan to evict another 90 thousand in the near future. I am a pragmatist also. However, I don't see Kadima leading anywhere but kicking its best citizens in the teeth.

Were you in favor of the brutality in Amona? Are you in favor of the demonization of the settlers and the religious people in Israel? Israel will not do well if it continues in that direction.

Lieberman who leads the Russian immigrant party sounds like a better pragmatist. He hasn't stolen as much money as Sharon and Olmert so he might not rank as high in the eyes of Haaretz.

Israel is in a very difficult position right now. If you don't think a nation that has suffered 1,300 deaths in the last five years, the equivalent of 25 thousand American deaths given relative populations that had its economy collapse, that is being forced to create large numbers of refugees among its own citizens to appease terrorists and Jew haters in the State Department in the US is in a tough spot you have a different view than me. In difficult times you want a strong dynamic leader, like Reagan, Thatcher, etc. Instead you have a DeGaulle, followed by someone worse than Nixon. I just don't see anything good coming from this.


25 posted on 03/26/2006 9:49:36 PM PST by Honestfreedom
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To: anotherview
Getting the Arabs outside our borders, having Israel be a Jewish state with an overwhelming Jewish majority, having tight defensible borders... these are all GOOD things.

If you believed that getting the Arabs outside of Israel's borders is a good thing, then you would support the Herut Party's policy of peacefully offering resettlement payments to Arab Israelis who choose to move elsewhere. As for the other Arabs who live in Judea, Samaria and Gaza, they are refugees according to UNRWA. Refugees, of course, are not living in their permanent homes. That being the case, there is no reason why they should be settled in permanent homes west of the Jordan River. When the Palestinian arab refugees are given permanent homes, those homes should be built in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq or elsewhere. Regarding the canard that Israel has to give up some of its land in order to maintain a Jewish majority, what should Israel do with the Golan and the Negev, both of which have Arab majorities? Should Jews have moved to Tel Aviv, which was created out of sand dunes hard by the Arab city of Yafo? In any case, this argument -- which only seems to be espoused by Meretz these days -- has been devastated by Bennett Zimmerman's outstanding report, which is in power-point format at http://www.pademographics.com/Demographic%20Study%20January@2010@202005.ppt .

26 posted on 03/26/2006 10:11:52 PM PST by Piranha
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To: anotherview
a non-citizen who commits a crime isn't granted citizenship

He did not commit a crime. He was arrested and released. He was not indicted, let alone convicted. But the aliyah dept will not expunge the arrest from his record. He is still waiting for a court date to challenge the decision.

27 posted on 03/27/2006 7:03:39 AM PST by Alouette (Psalms of the Day: 120-134)
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To: Alouette

I'm sure that your son will find relief after the next, right-wing/religious, government, takes power following tomorrow's election.

He is in an interesting situation, though. How would you feel if Rachel Corrie's Jewish friends from ISM were arrested in Gaza (pre-expulsion) or at one of those violent anti-fence protests that nobody seems to notice, and then attempted to declare citizenship in Israel? Personally, I would favor his getting citizenship if, like your son, he was arrested and released but not indicted.


28 posted on 03/27/2006 9:19:10 AM PST by Piranha
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To: Piranha

We are constantly hearing about how desperate Israel is for more Jews to make aliyah. Here they get a prime chunk of meat, good enough to wear an IDF uniform and serve in a combat unit, but he's likely to vote for the "wrong" party.

Can't have that!


29 posted on 03/27/2006 9:30:43 AM PST by Alouette (Psalms of the Day: 120-134)
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To: anotherview; 1st-P-In-The-Pod; A Jovial Cad; A_Conservative_in_Cambridge; adam_az; af_vet_rr; ...
in the U.S. a non-citizen can get citizenship by serving in the military but it isn't automatic.

Israel is not the U.S. Israel has a law granting citizenship to every Jew who applies and is desperate for more Jews to make aliyah.

Furthermore, service in the IDF is often used as an argument to trump all else when it comes to granting someone Israeli citizenship. How many times have we read some sob story in the Israeli media like "Poor Momo. Momo is the son of a Romanian sex worker and a Meretz party activist. Momo served in the IDF, getting wet in the line of duty when a extremist settler teenage girl dumped the contents of a bottle of water on him when he came to evict her from her house in Gush Katif. Momo converted in a Masorti conversion but those EEVILLE RABBIS continue to say he is not Jewish. Please help poor Momo! Remember, he served in the IDF and got wet in the line of duty!"

30 posted on 03/27/2006 10:57:39 AM PST by Alouette (Psalms of the Day: 120-134)
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To: Piranha
I'm sure that your son will find relief after the next, right-wing/religious, government, takes power following tomorrow's election.

Dream on. I'm just hoping after Bibi is ousted from Likud after a disasterous campaign that Silvan Shalom leads Likud into coalition. It seems clear that Avigdor Lieberman wants to do the same with Yisrael Beitenu. A center-right coalition would be better than the other alternative: Kadima-Labour-Meretz.

31 posted on 03/27/2006 12:18:53 PM PST by anotherview ("Ignorance is the choice not to know" -Klaus Schulze)
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To: anotherview

How do you think Lieberman and Olmert would be able to work out the issue of expulsion of Jews without corresponding expulsions of Arabs? From what I've read, a key part of Lieberman's platform is that Israel should take the IINO (Israeli in name only) Arab villages, like Umm-al-Fahm (forgive my spelling) and turn them over to the Palestinian administration. I don't see Olmert agreeing to something like this.

I also would expect Olmert to continue to use overwhelming force against the Jews in Yehudan and Shomron, and I don't think that Lieberman would be able to stomach this.

Then again, I read that one of the senior candidates in Lieberman's party actually is a publicly-acknowledged supporter of Meretz's Geneva Accord, so I really don't know what to think about how far Lieberman's principles extend. Maybe you have some insights?


32 posted on 03/27/2006 1:09:13 PM PST by Piranha
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To: Piranha

Avigdor Lieberman has been basically positioning himself as a partner in an Olmert-led coalition. The idea of trading the Arab triangle, including Umm al-Fahm, for settlement blocs is not new. The problem is that it is illegal. Most Israeli Arabs there want to remain Israeli and you cannot revoke their citizenship under our law.

I heard one commentary that said Lieberman would likely join the coalition but leave before actual withdrawal took place if it wasn't to his liking.

Yisrael Beitenu is considered hard right because it partnered with National Union before. You are correct in pointing out that it is actually mainly a Russian immigrant party with a diversity of views. I wouldn't rule them out of a coalition. I also wouldn't rule out United Torah Judaism.

I also know Prime Minister Olmert has no desire to implement any of Labour's economic ideas. He certainly has no love for Meretz. Bringing some of the right or religious blocs into the coalition would give him what Prime Minister Sharon had: a coalition to both his right and left where the center leads.


33 posted on 03/27/2006 4:03:16 PM PST by anotherview ("Ignorance is the choice not to know" -Klaus Schulze)
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To: anotherview

What?!


34 posted on 03/27/2006 8:18:33 PM PST by Salem (FREE REPUBLIC - Fighting to win within the Arena of the War of Ideas! So get in the fight!)
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To: anotherview; Travis McGee
Oh, and in the U.S. a non-citizen can get citizenship by serving in the military but it isn't automatic.

Wrong. You're thinking of the old *Lodge Act* legislation. Things have changed since then.

And after September the 11th, I signed an executive order making foreign-born members of our military immediately eligible for citizenship, because those willing to risk their lives for our democracy should be full participants in our democracy.

-- President George Bush, at March 27, 2006 Naturalization Ceremony at the DAR Administration Building, Washington, D.C.

35 posted on 03/28/2006 10:52:47 AM PST by archy (I am General Tso. This is my Chief of Staff, Colonel Sanders....)
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