Congress Must Pick Figure in Indian Suit

AP on Yahoo ^ | 3/1/06 | John Heilprin - ap

[thoughtomator]

Hopefully it doesn't have to be a real Indian...

[traditional1]

"Many people with a stake in the bitter class-action lawsuit against the Interior Department "

The ones with the biggest stake in this are 1) The Lawyers who will get the bulk of the money and 2) The Taxpayers who will pay the entire amount.

[rocksblues]

"This trust system was imposed on people, we didn't ask for it," said Mike Marchand, the first vice president of Affiliated Tribes of Northwest Indians. "We're doing the best we can to work with the system." Marchand looked to Congress, saying a court settlement "seems to be getting farther and farther away every day." He complained that Bush administration officials "don't seem to have a lot of knowledge about life on our reservations or how to communicate."

Jeez in 1887 it was still Bush's fault!

[thoughtomator]

I'll go ahead an pick a number... $0.

[traditional1]

"I'll go ahead an pick a number... $0.

Works for me !

[sarasmom]

I pick 27 billion.
Back to square one.
Any minimally qualified CPA could probably come up with an actual, logical, equitable and fiscally justified figure in 90 days or less.
No, I have not pursued my tribal affiliation, although I do qualify and could prove my lineage.
Did you also applaud the Kelo decision?
If the USA government does not have to abide by the Constitution,laws and the treaties they have made, and are allowed to take whatever "they" deem ripe for the plunder, then it's every man for themselves, and back to tribal/sectarian/warlord life for us all.

[MACVSOG68]

I'll go ahead an pick a number... $0.

That's pretty close. The only actual audit of records of the original plaintiff's leases all the way back to 1909 determined that with 95% assurance, a total of $67 was unaccounted for. This is the largest scam ever perpetrated on the American taxpayer.

[thoughtomator]

Since this government isn't even following the Constitution, I'd say we're already at square one, and treaties with the tribes mean nothing at all. Certainly there is no justice in the taxpayer paying the bill for this - who made off with the goods? Pursue them for the money. The taxpayer is innocent.

[traditional1]

"then it's every man for themselves, and back to tribal/sectarian/warlord life for us all"

Any of the offended that are still alive (not the heirs who had no dog in the fight) can collect, in my book. Same ol' reparations-type argument here, that says some Lawyer wants to redistribute the wealth from the Taxpayer's pocket to their own.

The quote above is pretty indicative of what we have in the USA today (unless you're a designated "minority")

[MACVSOG68]

I pick 27 billion.

Why?

Any minimally qualified CPA could probably come up with an actual, logical, equitable and fiscally justified figure in 90 days or less.

$100 million+ has been spent to date attempting to comply with the judge's order to completely account for the payments since 1887. It is not a money issue as much as a record issue. Records do not go back far enough for a complete accounting. But as I mentioned in an earlier post, the only audit done of the original plaintiffs' leases reflected $67 unaccounted for, and that back to 1909. BTW, if any money is actually missing, look to the Bureau of Indian Affairs which had responsibility for accounting and distributing the funds for most of the time in question. It has been run almost entirely by....Indians!

[sarasmom]

Apparently, you are ignorant on this particular topic.
This "case" is not about historical reparations.
To distill the situation:
The Feds have been/and continue to- knowingly fleece the tribes and are still cooking the books.
Proven in many courts of law, undeniably, for several decades.
This is not "ancient history"./sarcasm intended//
They, the USA BIA and related federal agencies, were finally caught, much like Enron was, and are now in the punishment phase of what passes for justice in the USA.
The Federal Government owes money to property owners, in this case, tribal reservations, for physical assets that they legally contracted with the tribal leaders, to extract at a given rate of financial return.
The feds failed to abide by the legal contract.
They were judged to be guilty of theft, and breach of contact.
The prolonged legal appeals process has run its course, and the final penalty stage is at hand.
Those "offended", or as it is correctly termed "the plaintiffs" are indeed still very much alive, and the "offense" happened to them, not their ancestors.

And as I stated, I have not legally proclaimed myself a member of a designated minority.
I am a taxpayer.
And I am not ignorant on this topic.
Ignorance is easily cured by factual knowledge.
Stupidity happens when one intentionally avoids proven facts, and stubbornly clings to ignorance as a method of reinforcing their ignorant opinions.

[sarasmom]

The taxpayer IS the government, in this situation.
We are talking about the USA, after all, not some bannana republic.

I find it very odd that some FReepers, not just you alone, look at our representative form of government as an entity you have no control over.

[sarasmom]

Source?

[MACVSOG68]

The Feds have been/and continue to- knowingly fleece the tribes and are still cooking the books.

Please help me out here. What books are being cooked, and who is knowingly fleecing the tribes, and by what means?

The Federal Government owes money to property owners, in this case, tribal reservations, for physical assets that they legally contracted with the tribal leaders, to extract at a given rate of financial return.

Perhaps you are not aware that this is actually not a tribal issue, but an allottee issue. If you do not understand, please ask and I will try and help you out.

Those "offended", or as it is correctly termed "the plaintiffs" are indeed still very much alive, and the "offense" happened to them, not their ancestors.

Not so. This suit requires accounting back to 1887.

The feds failed to abide by the legal contract. They were judged to be guilty of theft, and breach of contact.

Again, you are completely incorrect. No such judgement has been rendered. The entire issue is about whether the Interior Department can or should do a 100% accounting of all of the allotted leases since the Act was signed. No "money", other than the $67 I previously mentioned has ever been referred to as stolen (and the $67 was actually paid to the wrong allottee), therefore theft as you put it is not at issue. Of course, if theft did take place, the question is which Indians stole it, and how much?

And I am not ignorant on this topic. Ignorance is easily cured by factual knowledge. Stupidity happens when one intentionally avoids proven facts, and stubbornly clings to ignorance as a method of reinforcing their ignorant opinions.

I do recommend you avail yourself of your own advice.

[MACVSOG68]

Source?

For what, my question of why you chose $27 billion?

[thoughtomator]

If there's real money owed, let's see an accounting and hear the story of how things got to be this way. If money was stolen, it went somewhere, and those who got it are the ones to be held accountable. This "just pick a number" is an admission that this has nothing to do with justice and is simply a way to dishonestly leverage the legal system into yet another theft from the taxpayer.

If the Indians are owed a fair deal, what about the US citizens? Don't we ever get the opportunity to be treated fairly? I saw nothing of what was taken from the Indians and I find the suggestion that I should be the one to be held accountable for alleged misdeeds (in which I played no part) to be offensive to any reasonable concept of fairness.

In a country where the 2nd Amendment can be interpreted in such a way that in the capital itself there is no right to bear arms, I see no justification for holding me or any other taxpayer to the letter of a 120-year-old agreement to which no one alive today was ever a party. Double standards are not OK, not when it is the decent law-abiding citizen who gets the short end of the stick every time.

[sarasmom]

This is not a judgement against the Feds for something that happened 400,300,200 or even 100 years ago.
This whole case happened in my lifetime, and yours.
That you continue to cling to ignorance, does not absolve you of anything, except perhaps, respect.
But I will give it one last shot.
The suit has been judged and appealed.
The USA Federal Government was found guilty of intentionally defrauding the plaintiffs, who BTW, are USA citizens, taxpayers, and property owners.
The Federal Government has already illegally benefited, and have acknowledged that, and have been legally judged guilty that they did so, stemming from intentionally fraudulent practices of government agencies.
This is not a moral judgement.
But since you bring it up, morally, the Feds had no defense either, and admitted guilt on that level, also.
Damages are due the aggrieved citizens, who have proven their case at every available legal level.
Those are the bald "facts" in plain laymans terms.
Google the details if you think I am just making this whole thing up out of thin air.
As I have stated, I am not going to benefit, and will as a taxpayer, be one of the many paying for the final amount paid to the claimants.
Educate yourself on this issue before you attempt to argue your baseless and irrelevant opinions with me.

[F.J. Mitchell]

We can keep playing this sh*t for brains game til hell freezes over and the country goes belly up, or we can draw a line in the sand on the rational side of insanity and say, "no more."

[sarasmom]

When faced with a person asking inane and "straw man" questions such as yours, I can only echo the words of a better sokesman than I, who when faced with a similar situation responded :

"Don't get stuck on stupid".