Posted on 02/27/2006 7:38:32 PM PST by William Tell 2
Yes...for me 'Witness' was the linchpin that changed my opinion about many things, most notably the American left and the media.
But it didn't change my opinion that societies lacking the willpower to keep themselves from being eaten from within do not survive.
Since we openly allow people from all over the world to come here with little or no documentation, these people are all basically from within our society, if we cannot distinguish them. If we do nothing about it, in the current climate, America will finished as a nation.
The fact that you are offended that someone has to point out that people died to precipitate this situation says more about your point of view than it does about mine. There are a lot of people who forget that there are many things precipitated by the events of 9/11. They think this horrible crisis of FBI agents needing access to a public computer happened in a vacuum, or that the government was just waiting for an excuse to do it. These are the same people who never ask themselves the question: "If 9/11 had not happened, would we be in Iraq right now in the capacity we are?"
It is sad indeed that some people have to REMIND other people that there is such a thing as cause and effect. There are people out there saying "We spend too much time thinking about 9/11, we should put it behind us..." You certainly sound like one of those people who think post-9/11 will be the same as pre-9/11. Sorry to have to be the one to throw the picture in your face of an American who died that day. But perhaps you are not one of those people.
You may be living in a utopian reality, or maybe perhaps your "2 million people killed rather than 2000" statement was just rhetoric, but for a supposed conservative you are displaying all the hallmarks of the opposite state of mind.
Liberalism has an unattainable utopian future in which any means justifies the ends to achieve it, including a supposed society where nobody is going to fly planes into buildings, and closing your eyes to the likelihood of it happening is just as important as finding the likely perpetrators of such an action.
While that could happen, it's certainly not inexorable. Abe Lincoln suspended habeas corpus. Habeas corpus has since been reinstated. Woodrow Wilson's Sedition Act was repealed about two years after it was enacted. FDR interned Americans of Japanese descent. That isn't happening anymore.
Franklin was right, "Those willing to sacrifice a little liberty to gain a little security deserve neither."
I'm a fan of Franklin, and in fact, he and I share the same birthday. But I think that quote of his is overstated. It implies that maximum liberty is had with no security. And that is demonstrably false.
Interesting point. We do tend to be a bit bellicose.
bump
Some good points, thanks. I should remember nothing is absolute.
"It implies that maximum liberty is had with no security. And that is demonstrably false."
Perhaps, but maximum liberty is LESS secure.
But, is maximum security void of liberty? Probably, very nearly.
You're welcome. As well, I appreciate the polite response and I apologize for the tone of my response initially.
Your initial posting was worthy of my disagreement, and I should have not jumped on you as quickly as I did. I generally try to be civil in these forums, usually with success, but I have my hot button issues like everyone else.
Mine happens to be 9/11, the state of war we are in, and the relationship between the two.
I sure appreciate that. We all have our sore spots I'm pretty thick skinned, so don't sweat it. I am a hopeless smart a** though, so please forgive in advance.
Personally, I'm a fan of the Afgan and Iraq efforts. I do not think they are really about combatting terrorism, that is only a small part of it. SHould they be successful in creating a freer country in the middle east, great. The real cause is to get a non OPEC country, Iraq, producing and transporting (bring the pipe line through Afgan and like countries down through Iraq) large quantities of oil. Blow the top off prices, blow the maarket apart. Destroy or seriously harm OPEC. This would give a huge shot in the arm of our country and style of life. More shockingly, however, is I believe servicemen's lives are worth this: Put another way, our way of life and its improvement IS worth fighting and dying for.
A little weird, I know.
I spent a few weeks visiting members of my family in Columbia, MO. They enjoy
the city,but grit their teeth at the liberal nuttiness invading the
place via the University of Missouri.
BUT, on a couple of visits to the CITY library, I was shocked at the balance
of the catalog; in fact it seemed to be a little balanced to the right.
And full of all sorts of media to be checked out, even some that would
drive the ACLU nuts, like "The Question of God" DVD.
Sure beats the heck out the stuff I endure during a visit to the bookstores
of Santa Monica, CA!
True, but there has to be some security mixed with liberty or liberty won't exist at all. Without that security, people would be vulnerable to being enslaved by the first barbarian who comes down the road and beats them into submission.
But, is maximum security void of liberty? Probably, very nearly.
I would agree. North Korea is a prime example of it.
I do take issue, however with your comment:
"...You parade the dead and those working to defend the country as some sort of saints."
I do not parade them as saints. That is not MY characterization. But those who put their life on the line sitting in a gunner position in a humvee cruising down some street in Iraq, or flying a helicopter in the mountains in Afghanistan deserve more than they get from many Americans.
Those men and women do not, for the most part do it for the money. There are many reasons why they serve, some of those reasons would make no sense to people who do not understand the military, have never lived around the military or been in the military. They deserve every accolade we can render on them if they perform honorably. It is the LEAST we can do, and those accolades should be given with honesty, respect and sincerity.
Having lived around the military my whole life growing up, and spent some time in myself, I do not elevate them to some idealistic platform. But I do know they are the ones who are putting their asses on the line, and live each day with the real possibility they may never see another sunrise. And that goes for the REMFS who may only fly the transports over there or process the papers. Any one of them could be called on at any time.
They deserve all the money we can afford to give them, and all the compliments for their sacrifice. Money would be great, but if respect is all we can afford, that is what they should get.
"but there has to be some security mixed with liberty or liberty won't exist at all"
Yes. I'm not a total idiot, as there isn't total anything (Sad when you can't even be a perfect idiot :)). There is a balance and a give and take. Yes. I feel there are enough tools at hand (that is an opinion and I concede it may be wrong). I worry that every little thing that the gov wishes to implement will be done under the guise of security over the next few years. The NAIS is just that. Recently there was a post on this site about national ID cards, again, the issue of security is touted. 99% of these security measures are to keep us under thumb. There is little doubt they will make us more secure, but they will also make us less free. Perhaps I'm just a thrill seeker and wqant to live dangerously free without a safety net. I'm being silly (or sillier) of course, but the anology isn't far off. Everybody seemingly wants the gov to be the safety net. I don't.
Thanks again.
"I do take issue, however with your comment:
"...You parade the dead and those working to defend the country as some sort of saints." "
As well you should. It was most terse and uncalled for. I was wrong to take on a tone akin to those (not necessarily yours) I was bveing treated too. Sorry. Thanks for calling me out on it.
Still, if I may, there are those, particularly on the right, who do as I suggested. I'm guilty of it too. You say, "I do not elevate them to some idealistic platform" I have and I've seen it done. Some are deserving, however. Shugart and Gordon for their service in Somalia immediately come to mind and I hold them in the highest esteem, as I do many of our service people, especially those unsung on the periphery. As a former Marine, I couldn't have done what I did in the field without their support.
Yes they deserve our time and money, but I think we spit in their faces if we seek to restrict the liberties they fight to preserve.
Thanks again.
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