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Judge Jones discusses his opinion in Kitzmiller v. Dover
Philadelphia Inquirer ^ | 26 February 2006 | Staff

Posted on 02/27/2006 3:56:55 AM PST by PatrickHenry

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To: A Jovial Cad; ml1954; From many - one.
We have a constitutional right to free association. Government schools violate this every day of every school year.

If you are concerned about the rise of Islam in the U.S., the solution is to control immigration. The solution is NOT force ALL children into government indoctrination centers.

It is child abuse to force immature children into an environment were their most deeply held traditions ( with religious consequences) will be undermined by the teachers and the other students.

As for you, "From many-one", I really do wonder about those who write the following:

I approve ( insert conservative principle) and even practiced ( insert conservative Principle) but now my views are changing to ( leftist agenda).

True conservatives trust the good sense of their fellow citizens. If they don't and wish to use government to mold others into their anointed image, they are leftists.
201 posted on 02/28/2006 5:44:00 AM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid.)
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To: ClaireSolt
"I think it is true to say that science now has explanations for things that were once thought unknowable or supernatural, so the line changes betwen what is regarded natural and supernatural."

The fact still remains that the supernatural/untestable are outside the domain of science.

"If you assume, in a nation where most profess to believe in God, that many children come to school with a Genesis story implanted in their brain by home and church, why would you ignore that and insist that it not be mentioned?"

Because it's a parable that has been falsified as historical truth?

"Science should be made more accessible to more students. Now, it is a realm for a very few who get it, and I don't think that is good."

We should dumb it down so the stupid kids can understand it too? Brilliant idea. lol We've already tried Whole Math and Whole Language; I don't see how Whole Science will have any better success than those two abysmal failures.
202 posted on 02/28/2006 5:49:05 AM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: wintertime

I've walked the walk (homeschooled kids). Have you?

There is nothing the slightest bit leftist about wanting to have other peoples' kids share my American values.

In an earlier thread I mentioned to you that I was still looking for a voucher type system that would work in practice. You never responded.

You may think it's somehow left-wing to be concerned about Islamist isolates, but I think you show signs of being a one-trick-pony seminar poster since your solution to everything is to eliminate "government" (read publically funded) schools. And then to name-call or ignore anyone who questions your solution.

And I will continue to evaluate the situation as new evidence comes to light. I'm a scientist, after all.


203 posted on 02/28/2006 6:21:42 AM PST by From many - one.
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To: ClaireSolt
I am not arguing that courts should be abolished or that people should have no recourse when they are screwed by crocked politicians

Well I glad to hear you say that because the people of Dover Pennsylvania got screwed by crooked politicians and they successfully sued. What's your beef?

204 posted on 02/28/2006 6:35:49 AM PST by shuckmaster (An oak tree is an acorns way of making more acorns)
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To: CarolinaGuitarman

Individual rights are not subject to a public vote; a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority; the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual)"
Ayn Rand


205 posted on 02/28/2006 6:40:08 AM PST by ClaireSolt (.)
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To: shuckmaster

I have explained my objections fully.


206 posted on 02/28/2006 6:41:26 AM PST by ClaireSolt (.)
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To: From many - one.

When I mentioned the prohibition against teaching about communism in CA in the 60's on another thread, someone posted to me with chapter and verse that it is still against the law in CA. I am not responsible for teaching you what you do not know. If you need to verify what I say, look it up, as you are the one who is lacking knowledge in this area.


207 posted on 02/28/2006 6:47:00 AM PST by ClaireSolt (.)
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To: ClaireSolt

You did not say "teaching," you said "mention."


Your statement. You back it up.


208 posted on 02/28/2006 6:53:30 AM PST by From many - one.
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To: wintertime

It is child abuse to force immature children into an environment were their most deeply held traditions ( with religious consequences) will be undermined by the teachers and the other students.

Don't ever let your kids leave your house, watch TV, listen to radio, or use the Internet. If you do, they will be almost certainly be exposed to an 'environment where their most deeply held traditions (may) be undermined'.

I am a practical person, not an ideologue. Elimination of public schools is not a realistic or practical option. And eliminating from public schools ALL that ANY parent does not want their child exposed to is impossible. I am open to a voucher system if a workable one could be devised.

In any event, it is the parents' responsibility to offset anything that is taught in public schools that they disagree with, along with any thing on TV, in popular music, in movies, on the Internet, etc.

And BTW, I agree with your characterization of many public schools as 'indoctrination centers' where political philosophy is concerned. Breaking the teachers union, which I am for, might help mitigate this problem.

209 posted on 02/28/2006 6:54:43 AM PST by ml1954 (NOT the disruptive troll seen frequently on CREVO threads)
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To: ClaireSolt; shuckmaster

I don't know what "fully" means to Clairsolt...but it does not seem to include completeness or clarity.


210 posted on 02/28/2006 6:56:02 AM PST by From many - one.
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To: ClaireSolt

If this has something to do with why God is or isn't outside the scope of science, you certainly haven't made it clear how.

As for ID, it's bad theology dressed up to appear like science.



211 posted on 02/28/2006 6:57:04 AM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: ClaireSolt
Back in the USSR.

In the USSR, they had a constitution, but they ignored it. Here, the Dover board ignored the US Constitution and tried to illegally teach religion as science. Back in the USSR, indeed.

212 posted on 02/28/2006 7:01:02 AM PST by WildHorseCrash
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To: Oztrich Boy
I'm definitely going to steal that one.

Just so you know who you're stealing it from

Then I thank you. Nice work.

213 posted on 02/28/2006 7:02:16 AM PST by WildHorseCrash
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To: wintertime
It is child abuse to force immature children into an environment were their most deeply held traditions ( with religious consequences) will be undermined by the teachers and the other students.

If your religious convictions can be undermined by the merest mention of scientific facts, or by the presence of people who don't share them, then they aren't worth very much, are they?

My faith is somewhat stronger than that. My son's will be, too. We don't need to fear information.

214 posted on 02/28/2006 9:17:55 AM PST by highball (Proud to announce the birth of little Highball, Junior - Feb. 7, 2006!)
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To: Doctor Stochastic
The Third Amendment notwithstanding, some noisy music is most welcome in my house.


215 posted on 02/28/2006 4:27:24 PM PST by Gumlegs
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To: ClaireSolt
I disagree with the remedy of taking it to federal court

I understand that your position can be entirely summarized by the above sentence. However, I see that you have also failed to respond to others' responses to the effect that courts exist for redress of grievances when the law is broken.

The school board members violated the constitution, the highest law of the land, and the citizens were therefore right to ask a judge to confirm or deny this. Why do you suggest the judicial branch exists, if not for situations precisely like this?
216 posted on 02/28/2006 4:50:08 PM PST by aNYCguy
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To: WildHorseCrash
Here, the Dover board ignored the US Constitution and tried to illegally teach religion as science. Back in the USSR, indeed.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%5

In Dover, and in every state in the Union, school boards ignore the U.S. Constitution and their state constitutions.

Children are FORCED into government buildings and subjected to an agenda that can never be neutral in content or consequences. Government schools are not neutral politically, culturally, or in the teaching of morals and ethics ( that means religion). Children and indirectly their parents have their rights to free speech, free press, free assembly, and free expression of religion TRASHED.


If state constitutions call for government schools then there is an internal conflict in the document. It is impossible to have govenrment schools AND respect our human right to free speech, free press, free assembly, free expression of religion, AND be free of government imposed worldview ( that means religion).

Government schools are human rights abusers, and since children are involved, CHILD ABUSERS.
217 posted on 02/28/2006 5:25:13 PM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid.)
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To: highball

If your religious convictions can be undermined by the merest mention of scientific facts, or by the presence of people who don't share them, then they aren't worth very much, are they?

My faith is somewhat stronger than that. My son's will be, too. We don't need to fear information.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Personally, "highball", I support evolution.

However,,,,unlike you,,,,I am not advocating the threat of armed police, court, and foster care action to FORCE it on other people's children.,,,,Nor,,,am I willing to use the threat of sheriff's auction of another citizen's home or business to fund it.

By the way,,,,there are real bullets in those guns on the hip.


218 posted on 02/28/2006 5:29:00 PM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid.)
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To: ml1954
Don't ever let your kids leave your house, watch TV, listen to radio, or use the Internet. If you do, they will be almost certainly be exposed to an 'environment where their most deeply held traditions (may) be undermined'.

My homeschooled kids were in college by the ages of 13, 12, and 13. This is hardly sheltered.

However....unlike YOU,,,I am not about to use the threat of armed police, court, and foster care action to FORCE my educational philosophy on other people's children.

That is what government schools are! The biggest political bully gets to control the government school agenda AND have at their disposal armed Polk, courts, and foster care workers to FORCE it on resistant parents and children.

I am a practical person, not an ideologue.

What I believe you are is a liberal who is posing as a fake conservative. I just love it when liberals say, "I voted for Bush,,,BUT,,," or in your case "I homeschooled,,,BUT,, can't see any way to implement choice in schooling".

Elimination of public schools is not a realistic or practical option. And eliminating from public schools ALL that ANY parent does not want their child exposed to is impossible. I am open to a voucher system if a workable one could be devised.

To All: Does the above sound like a liberal in conservative disguise?

In any event, it is the parents' responsibility to offset anything that is taught in public schools that they disagree with, along with any thing on TV, in popular music, in movies, on the Internet, etc.

A true conservative would NEVER state that is OK for the government to undermine a child's culture and religious beliefs so long as the parents undo the damage at home.

And BTW, I agree with your characterization of many public schools as 'indoctrination centers' where political philosophy is concerned. Breaking the teachers union, which I am for, might help mitigate this problem.

Yeah right! ( sarcasm)

219 posted on 02/28/2006 5:45:42 PM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid.)
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To: aNYCguy

When I was a girl, there was a common expression that went, "don't make a federal case out of it." In my mind, there are more important values which have been violated. Anyway, not every breach of law (this I think was a constitutional interpretation) is redressed in court. It is a matter of judgement, and those who have kept pestering me about this are, I think, some kind of irrational zealots who brush aside the larger considerations in favor of forcing their ideas on everyone else. I guess there has been a passionate fight about evolution in the classroom for almost 100 years, so maybe it is somewhat understandable. But this is just one more nail in the coffin of public education, something I liked pretty well. I doubt that there will be any public schools by 2100. Will you celebrate?


220 posted on 02/28/2006 6:15:07 PM PST by ClaireSolt (.)
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