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It Didn’t Work (Buckley declares Iraq a failure)
National Review Online ^ | 02/24/06 | William F Buckley Jr

Posted on 02/24/2006 7:12:07 PM PST by CometBaby

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To: CometBaby
One can't doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed.

Some people are tone deaf on foreign affairs.

161 posted on 02/24/2006 10:02:28 PM PST by TheDon (The Democratic Party is the party of TREASON!)
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To: SteveMcKing
I will say goodbye to this liberal piece of crap website.

Okay.

162 posted on 02/24/2006 10:06:03 PM PST by T. Buzzard Trueblood (left unchecked, Saddam Hussein...will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." Sen. Hillary Clinton)
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To: churchillbuff

OK.


163 posted on 02/24/2006 10:07:55 PM PST by Torie
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To: Fruitbat; All
Good evening.
"Well I see that you have a life. ; )"

Yes, I do, and I would like to thank all of you for your contributions to it.

Now, if I could just get my attention surplus disorder under control...

Michael Frazier
164 posted on 02/24/2006 10:10:11 PM PST by brazzaville (no surrender no retreat, well, maybe retreat's ok)
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To: Theophilus
Great post #101. Well reasoned and accurate. We're doing great in Iraq, absolutely terrific and it's been that way since we rolled off the line in Kuwait. The vast majority of Westerners simply cannot comprehend the fathom the signifigance, importance and magnitude of our efforts in the Muslim world.

***Warning*** spoiler follows:

Clue: The Sunnis and Shiite militas are attacking each others' hardline clerics, extremists and paramilitary groups rather than the IA and Coalition. Those same clerics and paramilitary groups were the ones agitating against the West, the Iraqi governemtn and the Coalition!

They are attacking and killing each others' extremists. They are in effect vetting the country of the very type of hardliners and paramilitary groups they've been controlled by for hundreds of years. This is good! It shows they no longer tolerate the lies and hatred of the extremists.

It is loose confederations of Sunni and Shiite secularists who are conducting the attacks. The armed people in the streets are just that -the armed people. They are lashing out at the very religious extremism they've been shackled with for centuries. Today it's 'the other guy' tomorrow it will be their own.

This is a huge win for the government of Iraq and the Coalition. In attacking the religious hardliners of other sects the Iraqi people are striking at the insular and extremist conduct of Islam in Iraq. Many don't like it and are fed up with it. By murdering each others' clerics they are, in effect, showing their preference for pluralism and secularism over an Islamic theocracy.

This is about reducing the influence of religion on peoples daily lives and government. With the advent of pluralism it was inevitable.

The Iraqis are not fighting each other; they are not fighting the government and they are not fighting the Coalition. They are fighting against the influence of religious hardliners and secular paramilitary groups. And this is a good thing.

165 posted on 02/24/2006 10:12:12 PM PST by Justa (Politically Correct is morally wrong.)
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To: The Worthless Miracle
The people over there don't seem to want democracy, only chaos.

What kind of bizarre mentality is it which sees Person #1 attack Persons #2-#10 and concludes blithely "I guess People #1-#10 don't want democracy"? There should be a name for it because it is very widespread.

Which people do you think you're talking about? The handful of people who attacked a mosque, or the millions who voted? Why don't the millions count, and why do the minority of terrorists get to speak for everyone there, in your eyes? Why do you slap this label "the people over there" on the most violent minority?

Snap out of it.

The ball is in their court now. What else can we do for them?

Of course the ball's in their court. We put it there, by overthrowing their dictator. So, yes, the ball's in their court. That was the idea!

I think the remaining thing we can do for them is to have patience and not to give up on them based on silly, bizarre reasoning such as "the democratic majority there are under attack therefore they don't want democracy". Open your eyes and try to see the silent, peaceful majority.

Why does a certain stripe of conservative have no trouble understanding the silent majority concept in his own country but cannot see it in others?

166 posted on 02/24/2006 10:13:13 PM PST by Dr. Frank fan
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To: SC33; SteveMcKing

"Conservatives can be just as hypocritical and close-minded as liberals...."

O.K. SC33 and SteveMcKing: I just want you two guys to know I've got your backs. Not only hypocritical and closed-minded but many on this website can be downright mean-spirited if you are not in lock-step with their every thought and philosophy. I mentioned once before that Ann Coulter makes me nervous sometimes because she runs her mouth before thinking and some stuff she says is silly at best, stupid at worse.

Dear God; you would have thought that I said Mother Teresa was a lesbian, the scorn I received on this website. Oh well, hang tough.


167 posted on 02/24/2006 10:13:38 PM PST by no dems ("A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking" Steven Wright)
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To: Bahbah

Buckley knows less than he thinks he knows. He has never been quite sure that the other Yalies might not be right.


168 posted on 02/24/2006 10:14:38 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: Justa

Sorry but that's just plain wrong. The violence that has followed the mosque bombing is not the expression of a sudden outpouring of desire for secular government, it is religious violence, plain and simple. Shias firing rockets at Sunni mosques is sectarian violence, plain and simple.


169 posted on 02/24/2006 10:16:30 PM PST by fragrant abuse
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To: Torie
Hafta' agree, Torie. To Mr. Buckley and to the complaining Iraqi:

....yada, yada, yada....

Did they think this monumental task would be completed by now? If so, their sense of history is very short-sighted. I'm surprised Mr. Buckley has taken such a myopic, and perhaps ethnocentric, view.

"Look at me, Mom...I just critiqued Mr. William F. Buckley's view on the situation in Iraq! Yee-haw!"

Mom will be so proud of me....?8^)
170 posted on 02/24/2006 10:17:36 PM PST by hummingbird (And, yes, I am wearing my Notre Dame T-Shirt today!)
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To: hosepipe
Not that simple. Besides you are historically wrong. Iraq hung together fairly well until 1957 when the collapse of British authority after Suez led to the overthrow of the monarchy and the establishment of a Nasser clonedom. Saddam was simply the bankruptcy of Arab socialism.
171 posted on 02/24/2006 10:19:21 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: Fruitbat
And we have to wonder how long that's gonna take. Right now there are no signs that Iraq is ready to defend and police itself with any kind of pervasive effectiveness.

It's going to take years and perhaps decades. This should not be surprising. Iraq was a Stalinist dictatorship for decades. Yet for some reason people seem to want it to wrap up with a big "we're finished making a perfect democracy" ceremony faster than an episode of American Idol. Sorry, but, it's going to take years and perhaps decades. Ok? I knew this going in. Didn't you? Didn't everybody? If not, why not? And when are they going to come to terms with it do you think?

172 posted on 02/24/2006 10:20:48 PM PST by Dr. Frank fan
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To: joseph20
So where does this Mr. Buckley get off making such pronouncements?

I have no clue, that's why I'm asking.

173 posted on 02/24/2006 10:20:51 PM PST by mancogasuki (Live Free Or Die.)
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To: churchillbuff
America had its Civil War...why shouldn't the Iraqis have the same opportunity.

Civil wars are a painful, albeit predictable, part of the cycle of civilization.
174 posted on 02/24/2006 10:22:03 PM PST by hummingbird (And, yes, I am wearing my Notre Dame T-Shirt today!)
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To: BubbaTheRocketScientist

I don't see many useful points of comparison between WWII and the current war.


175 posted on 02/24/2006 10:23:00 PM PST by joseph20
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To: Fruitbat
[vote turnout] Yeah, but that is by no means a guarantee of success over the long haul.

Oh boo hoo. We don't have a "guarantee of success". How spoiled we now are! I can only thank goodness that in 1943 we weren't so plagued by natterers braying about not having a "guarantee of success".

I'm all for being over there until the job's done, but how long's that gonna be given [...]

No honest person can tell you the answer to your question. We will just have to find out. Ok?

As you know, we still have troop presences in Germany and Japan.

176 posted on 02/24/2006 10:26:05 PM PST by Dr. Frank fan
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To: Dr. Frank fan

A revolution is underway. People forget that during our own revolution, a minority were Whigs; a minority were Tories; the majority of people were in the middle. If Saratoga had not brought France into the war, things would have gone "differently." How we don't know, except that the majority would have gone to the winning side. And this will not be simply a sectarian battle.
It is a tribal society, and the tribes are divided religiously.


177 posted on 02/24/2006 10:26:32 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: joseph20
I don't see many useful points of comparison between WWII and the current war.

Inasmuch as we're not fighting a declared war against any particular state, you're right. On the other hand, the Germans and Japanese were driven by a cult-like fanaticism - much like our current enemy, and we were able to utterly defeat them in less time than it's taking us to pacify a relatively small area in Iraq. I don't understand why.
178 posted on 02/24/2006 10:27:14 PM PST by BubbaTheRocketScientist
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To: B Knotts
There are too many here now who adhere to a man, rather than a philosophy.

Agreed. They are the ones bemoaning the fact that some of us don't automatically agree with the contents of an article simply because it was written by a man named William Buckley.

179 posted on 02/24/2006 10:28:34 PM PST by Dr. Frank fan
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To: fragrant abuse
Nothing is simple in Islam, particularly sectarianism.

Please cite other such "plain and simple" examples of sectarian violence occuring among Muslims.

Well, then it's not plain or simple is it?

180 posted on 02/24/2006 10:28:50 PM PST by Justa (Politically Correct is morally wrong.)
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