Posted on 02/24/2006 6:24:09 AM PST by Sam's Army
Here is A. Pole's original comment. It looks like my idea of context was pretty accurate after all. Thanks for the lesson. LOL!
I neither want Communism nor system based on Free Market ideology.
I will list my wish list (not complete) and you tell me if it is Communism:
I would like society with moderate stratification, with small or family owned enterprises prevailing, with strong local communities, with religion being in the center of social life, with freedom of speech and association, with good safety net for the less successful.
I would like national economy being protected by tariffs. I would like middle class (people who work and have significant discretionary income) large and dominant, with poor and rich being few.
I would like trade unions to be wide spread and cooperating with the employers for the sake of common good.
I would like American workers to have long vacations and enough resources to travel abroad. I would like mothers to be able to stay home with children. I would like schools to be under control of parents.
I would like the role and size of military reduced and focused on defense instead of managing the large part of the world. I would like borders to be closed and immigration reduced to the minimum. I would like policy encouraging Americans to have their own children.
I would like state government to have more sovereign rights back. I would like the President to be elected by the Electoral College with electors APPOINTED by the state governments/legislatures.
I would like abortions not to be considered a constitutional right. I would like "sexual minorities" to stay in the closet. I would like total ban on alternative "marriages" including polygamy and "gay marriage".
Yes, but I was not responding to A. Pole, was I? You clearly did not, and do not, understand the context in which my comment was made.
The context, Todd, is that "capitalism without human face" is somehing that capitalists want to avoid, as it makes them targets of the people who are affected by their actions. Long-term self interest might be better served by treating employees as something other than interchangeable labor units.
Unfortunately local communities and religion have been weakening in America for decades. I don't think government can or should attempt to push religion. What's wrong with our safety net? We don't spend enough?
I would like national economy being protected by tariffs.
And tariffs are working for which successful economies?
I would like middle class (people who work and have significant discretionary income) large and dominant, with poor and rich being few.
And how would you reduce the number of rich Americans? Operation Kulak? Or maybe, Soylent Green is rich people, Soylent Green is rich people!!! As far as America's poor, I suspect they have a higher standard of living than the average Pole.
I would like trade unions to be wide spread and cooperating with the employers for the sake of common good.
Cooperate for the common good? That's a funny one!!!
I would like American workers to have long vacations and enough resources to travel abroad.
Don't forget, free pony rides and all the cotton candy you can eat!!!
I would like mothers to be able to stay home with children.
Many mothers do.
I would like schools to be under control of parents.
Sorry, your union buddies will never allow that.
I would like borders to be closed and immigration reduced to the minimum.
I agree. We shouldn't allow any more ungrateful immigrants.
I would like the President to be elected by the Electoral College with electors APPOINTED by the state governments/legislatures.
No more direct election of Presidents? Interesting idea.
I would like abortions not to be considered a constitutional right. I would like "sexual minorities" to stay in the closet. I would like total ban on alternative "marriages" including polygamy and "gay marriage".
Good ideas all.
You never answered my previous question, how did Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, the Walton family, Larry Paige and Sergey Brin, Jeff Bezos and Michael Dell make their wealth by exploiting the poor?
No, you were responding to Sam's Army and LowCountryJoe who were responding to A.Pole's original remark "Socialism with human face is better than capitalism without human face".
Do you agree with A.Pole? Even with my post about unemployment rates?
The context, Todd, is that "capitalism without human face" is somehing that capitalists want to avoid, as it makes them targets of the people who are affected by their actions. Long-term self interest might be better served by treating employees as something other than interchangeable labor units.
You're confusing P.R. with results.
I haven't heard anything about it, but it sounds like a deriviative and that's not my specialty. I bet SAJ knows all about it.
After FDR, every politician was a hack (although there were more than a few before him as well) who cared less for the free market and more for control of it. That includes Saint Ronnie as well. He talked a good game but didn't follow through (be a good Republican and lay all the blame at the feet of Congress eh?)
Stop drinking the bong water and perhaps you'll stop hallucinating so much.
What gave you the idea that I used drugs? An ability to think for myself and understand the principles of the free market?
During the time that America was on the gold standard, there were fewer rules and regulations covering the market and banking, there was a constant cycle of PANICS, DEPRESSIONS ( the one from '29 - the early '40s , was hardly something new ), RECESSIONS, AND BANK FAILURES. I take it that that's what you would like to go back to, from what you've been posting.
Yes, the gold standard caused it all. How dare economies be based on hard currency for close to '3000 years'. Why until these United States came along and 'saved' them it was just a daily horror. And again you are wrong. The depression beginning in 29 was new. It was one of the first times that a government intruded itself so far into the market. Which caused the depression to last at least twice as long as it should have. All praise FDR...
Oh, so Iran and Venezuela don't HATE America? Trying to manipulate currencies, by them has nothing whatsoever to do with their shared dream of harming us and bringing us to our knees? REALLY?
Aside from their political views no it doesn't. If I ran a nation, I wouldn't base my trade on the dollar, I'd more than likely base it on the Euro. You remember that unit of currency that dollar worshippers ridiculed but which has since stabilized and is worth more than the almighty dollar
ROTFLMSO.............you haven't the fainest idea what the FFS stood for, what their "values" were, nor, fir that matter, what mine are. But do keep yourself puffed up and warm, with the thought of just how "special" and "superior" you are, because nobody else thinks so; just you.
Again, obfuscation. Read my posts. Go back for the past 6 years through my posts. Find one politically based post that cannot be traced to the ideals of the Framers from their own words. Of course you won't. I realize that. Most of my posts are beyond your ken. When I invoke the name of a Framer, I not only know their name but their words. Now that I think about it, I don't think I've ever seen you post a single quote from any of the Framers or their peers
I'd rather you post a couple more paragraphs of drivel with a ROTFLMSO to wrap it all up eh?
This year I was about to say that to the IRS too, but we wound up with enough other deductions to itemize so I'm still an investor as far as they're concerned. It's another one of those topics that the IRS rules aren't clear, so I'll need a considerable incentive before I'm willing to try and explain it to an auditor.
If you've been able to get the concept of trader status across to those guys then you've given me new hope-- thanks!
Ungrateful immigrants want open borders.
No more direct election of Presidents? Interesting idea.
It is in the Constitution: "Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors". The "direct election" is not what the Founding Fathers had in mind (although the states have power use "direct election")
"I would like schools to be under control of parents."
Sorry, your union buddies will never allow that.
I am for unions in general, but not in such cases like this one.
free pony rides and all the cotton candy
Free time is a very valuable thing for families, for individuals and for the civic life. Much more important than "free pony rides and all the cotton candy".
And tariffs are working for which successful economies?
Worked well for USA for the last 200 years.
This was my question: "I will list my wish list (not complete) and you tell me if it is Communism:"
So what do you say?
And bigger government.
I am for unions in general, but not in such cases like this one.
In for a penny, in for a pound.
Worked well for USA for the last 200 years.
What have you done for me lately?
This was my question: "I will list my wish list (not complete) and you tell me if it is Communism:"
So what do you say?
Well, a government large enough to stop people from getting rich, taking their money after they die, strengthening local communities, putting religion back in the center of social life, limiting the size of enterprises so small and family owned prevail, higher tariffs, wide spread trade unions, mandating longer vacations, and higher wages so that more mothers stay home might not be Communism, but it sure isn't Conservatism.
Just how large a chunk of GDP do you think it would take to bring your dream to fruition? 50%? More? At what % would you consider it equivalent to Communism? Would our standard of living be as high as today? Or would our GDP shrink? It we shrink it by 70% we would be in the vicinity of Poland. Would that be a good idea?
So, you ever gonna tell me how those nasty rich guys stole from the poor? Or admit that they didn't steal from the poor?
Poland was poorer than USA BEFORE Communism. The reasons were that the original settlers came from the most developed parts of Western Europe, got free land with unlimited resources, were not burdened with stratified class structure or overpopulation and were secured by the oceans.
So, you ever gonna tell me how those nasty rich guys stole from the poor? Or admit that they didn't steal from the poor?
You touch very complex and tricky topic.
First, PLEASE understand that it is not my intention to slander/badmouth America or to insult your patriotism.
Also I what we talk about is a universal question applicable to all countries.
I am concerned that this and any other system can degenerate if not carefully and wisely maintained.
Money and the system of ownership are the useful ideas or symbols, but they are different from the actual reality they represent.
You can have the system where the minority owns/controls so much that it appears that the majority is being supported by the rich minority even if the majority is working and minority is not.
Trade contracts and forex and you won't have an issue...plus the leverage is great...shuffle the profits into a 401 or trust account for your kids and do your investing there...
No it didn't.
For the last 200 years, few things have been more anti-American than tariffs. The revolution was started by tariffs, It wasn't until 1789 that the US central government was even allowed to impose tariffs, but still the people made sure that the feds got most of their money from sales taxes. There was even a sales-tax revolt and Washington (the guy not the town) sent in troops.
While tariffs are anti-American, freedom of trade is as American as George Washington. The first US embassy was set up in Amsterdam to negotiate free trade. Washington's administration was even working on a bilateral agreement with China. It's all available in books and on the internet. Read about it here or surf it here:
It even tells about how tariffs didn't get serious until the 1890's when the Supreme Court ruled the flat tax unconstitutional, but that's off topic..
Not that tricky. Either they stole or they did not.
First, PLEASE understand that it is not my intention to slander/badmouth America or to insult your patriotism.
You can understand why an American might be upset that an immigrant that we allowed to become a citizen (I assume you are) constantly criticizes America?
You can have the system where the minority owns/controls so much that it appears that the majority is being supported by the rich minority even if the majority is working and minority is not.
Giving the government more money and control to benefit the poor didn't work so well in Eastern Europe, did it?
Your list in post #242 may be good ideas, but it seems like they are much closer to reality in Poland than in America. Please let me know if my assumption is mistaken. If it is true, and if those goals are so important, this American is curious why you don't return? Or are there other things in America that make this country a better place to live?
If I were praising free market, were critical of trade unions and promoted open borders then it would be OK with you? It would be pro-American?
Do you want immigrants to be apolitical or just to support and vote the way YOU want?
Does Poland or America better reflect your ideals? And please, don't accuse me of promoting open borders.
Do you want immigrants to be apolitical or just to support and vote the way YOU want?
If they voted more like Conservatives and less like Liberals of course that would be better :^)
That's right. I won't tell you whether or not I agree with A. Pole's comment -- I'll leave you to look up my comments on this thread, so that you will understand my position.
You're confusing P.R. with results.
I am talking about results, Todd -- and you can, too, if you'll only look at the history of the labor movement in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries.
Chicken.
and you can, too, if you'll only look at the history of the labor movement in the late 19th and early 20th Century
What's your point again?
LOL! All that proves is that you're happy to make things up, and too lazy to see what I actually said.
What's your point again?
Hmmmmm. I can see that you're not interested in an honest discussion. I'm through with you.
I did not think about, but I would say that safety net, things like Social Security are much better in America.
If it is true, and if those goals are so important, this American is curious why you don't return?
If I return to Poland I will be supporting the same things, and my motive will not be any hatred of Poland but rather my desire to help the country in which I grew up.
Or are there other things in America that make this country a better place to live?
In many aspects (not all) America is a better place to live. But I think that no place is perfect and that the happiness is in your heart.
The reason why I debate those things is not my personal situation - otherwise I would rather spend more time to take care of my own business. You seem to do the same - spending a lot of time on FR instead of making money :)
Let me use the Social Security as an example. I happen to think that it is very good program, which is working fine. I guess that you disagree with it strongly and that you are very critical toward Social Security.
It appears that the MAJORITY of Americans like Social Security as it is. So if I am right it is ME who is in agreement with America and not you.
I think that my views on borders and immigration are also in agreement with majority of Americans and so on many other subjects. I suspect that that way I might be more pro-American that you are.
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