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The Evolution of Theory: Defining the Debate
Breakpoint ^ | Feb, 16, 2006 | Allen Dobras

Posted on 02/18/2006 1:21:05 PM PST by DeweyCA

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To: the_Watchman

Actually the Creatonist mythos did pretty much stagnate until that great prophet of old, Gutenberg.


61 posted on 02/18/2006 2:48:28 PM PST by JmyBryan
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To: trashcanbred

It is a good question but it still does not patch any of the giant holes in the TOE.


62 posted on 02/18/2006 2:50:44 PM PST by 05 Mustang GT Rocks
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To: 05 Mustang GT Rocks
Just look what the human beings did just in the 20th century. Especially, the ones practising the religion of Atheism.

Be careful how you talk about all of those 'advanced, 'enlightened', 'unsuperstitious', 'scientific', 'rational' ones otherwise you could provoke another murder spree. Seriously, compare the 100 MILLION murders of Communism/Atheism to what the 1 billion Muslims on the planet have done. The Islamic killers look like utter incompetent small timers.

63 posted on 02/18/2006 2:51:22 PM PST by AmericaUnited
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To: trashcanbred
Why don't we see 40 million year old modern human fossils or 300 million year old horses?

...in the seventeenth century [1644], in his great work, Dr. John Lightfoot, Vice-Chancellor of the University of Cambridge, and one of the most eminent Hebrew scholars of his time, declared, as the result of his most profound and exhaustive study of the Scriptures, that "heaven and earth, centre and circumference, were created all together, in the same instant, and clouds full of water," and that "this work took place and man was created by the Trinity on October 23, 4004 B.C., at nine o'clock in the morning."

Andrew D. White, A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom (D. Appleton and Co., 1897, p. 9).

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/ussher.htm


64 posted on 02/18/2006 2:51:34 PM PST by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: 05 Mustang GT Rocks
By the way, a lot of evos seem to have a case of logorrhea but no one has yet been able to explain away the Cambrian explosion, the irreducibly complex systems, etc., etc.

These claims have become such chestnuts that they have standard responses: See CC300 & CB200. (far be it from me to add to logorrhea! :-)

65 posted on 02/18/2006 2:51:37 PM PST by jennyp (WHAT I'M READING NOW: The Chicago Manual of Style, 14th ed.)
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To: 05 Mustang GT Rocks
"...but no one has yet been able to explain away the Cambrian explosion..."


There isn't anything to *explain away*. There are Precambrian fossils, more and more every year. The *explosion* itself actually took tens of millions of years.

"... the irreducibly complex systems..."

The IC systems that ID'ers have *discovered* have been found to be not IC after all. The term actually is a bastardization of an engineering term called irreducible simplicity.

http://www.talkdesign.org/faqs/icdmyst/ICDmyst.html

Thanks for post though.
66 posted on 02/18/2006 2:51:39 PM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: trashcanbred

Interesting point. And difficult to answer from the Creationist pov. Hmmmm.


67 posted on 02/18/2006 2:55:25 PM PST by aligncare (Watergate killed journalism)
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To: 05 Mustang GT Rocks
Just look what the human beings did just in the 20th century. Especially, the ones practising the religion of Atheism. Like the Protest Warriors sign says; "Communism killed only 100 milion people, let's give it another chance."

Hegelianism is the intellectual grandfather of Marxism, Naziism and Italian fascism. Hegelianism is far more responsible for those 100 million deaths than atheism ever could be.

68 posted on 02/18/2006 2:57:44 PM PST by jennyp (WHAT I'M READING NOW: The Chicago Manual of Style, 14th ed.)
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To: trashcanbred
I have a question that I have never heard an evolutionist bring up before. The question is, if evolution is bunk, then why don't we see all the modern day animals in the fossil record? Why don't we see 40 million year old modern human fossils or 300 million year old horses?

The only answer I've ever seen is that what we consider "modern" animals were merely the created kinds that were smarter or faster runners as they sought higher ground during the Flood. Or that the "modern" animals were less dense, so they floated to the top of the sediments as the churned-up muddy waters precipitated out, while the more "primitive" animals were merely the ones that had the denser bodies. Or something along those lines.

69 posted on 02/18/2006 3:02:46 PM PST by jennyp (WHAT I'M READING NOW: The Chicago Manual of Style, 14th ed.)
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To: edsheppa
Ah, the ignorance of creationists is as vast as space.

I am doing a study and was wondering whether you adopted your Neanderthal mannerisms before or after you learned about evolution?
70 posted on 02/18/2006 3:04:43 PM PST by microgood
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To: jennyp

The Marxists deny Hegel (and would've killed him if they could) just like they deny anything that does not come from Marx, Engels, Lenin and the current tin-pot dictator.
For anybody that thinks they are oh not so bad, Lenin had a pretty correct term - useful idiots.

But now I am off to better things for real.


71 posted on 02/18/2006 3:04:55 PM PST by 05 Mustang GT Rocks
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To: jennyp

If so they should still exist in ancient fossil records. I should see a modern horse, or giraffe, or even human from 250 million years ago. Or even modern plant life should show up in the fossil record. So far they do not and the floating to the top doesn't make sense.


72 posted on 02/18/2006 3:09:14 PM PST by trashcanbred (Anti-social and anti-socialist)
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To: CarolinaGuitarman

It is not the number of pre-Cambrian fossils but the organisms that they represent.

Changing the terminology still does not explain anything.


73 posted on 02/18/2006 3:09:24 PM PST by 05 Mustang GT Rocks
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To: DeweyCA
it's seems to be more often the evolutionists who keep changing the terms of the debate

How so? It seems the deniers of evolution change the debate every day, yet the debate keeps going over the same track. But, going around and around is also evolution.

74 posted on 02/18/2006 3:14:13 PM PST by RightWhale (pas de lieu, Rhone que nous)
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To: 05 Mustang GT Rocks
"It is not the number of pre-Cambrian fossils but the organisms that they represent."

They represent logical precursors to post-Cambrian fossils.
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC301.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC300.html
http://faculty.weber.edu/bdattilo/fossils/notes/precamb.html

"Changing the terminology still does not explain anything."

I didn't change the terminology.
75 posted on 02/18/2006 3:21:16 PM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: trashcanbred
What's your opinion of this?

fossilized human finger

76 posted on 02/18/2006 3:23:45 PM PST by labette (In the beginning God created....)
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To: DeweyCA; RunningWolf; Coyoteman
First everyone agrees that IDEAS evolve. And second everyone agrees that DESIGNS evolve into better designs because the DESIGNERS have a purpose to be achieved with the designs, and (1) their ideations of how that purpose can best be acheived evolves, (2) the available resources to achieve that purpose through changes in design evolves (eg. the evolution of bronze, iron smelting), (3) they learn from other designs -- cross-polinate.

Those are my prefacing remarks.

Yet here you have brought a wonderful example of another type of IDEA evolution -- that of a infection, a disease, a virus so to speak.

The changes to published definitons of the word THEORY indicate that "Darwinism" is a serious viral infection -- the viruses genetic markers are obvious in the defintions themselves.

Darwinism is a virus of the idea space, and it has sickened not only dictionaries, but Science itself. In all fact, Science is very much infected.

77 posted on 02/18/2006 3:37:09 PM PST by bvw
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To: labette
In my humble opinion it is a rock that looks like a finger. Just like the so called "face on Mars", it is nothing more than a rock. Beside, if it was a finger from the Creataceous, I doubt it would look so much like a finger. Take a look at human flesh that did not rot because they have sat in bogs (do a google image search for "bog man"). Look at the color of the skin and compare it to the rock.

But don't take my word for it. At talkorigins they discuss this:

The alleged fossilized finger promoted by Baugh and associates is more likely just an interesting shaped rock or concretion. I was allowed to personally examine the "finger" several years ago, and saw nothing in it to suggest it is a fossil of any sort. Nor do I know any mainstream scientist or regards it as a fossilized finger. Contrary to the suggestions in the NBC show, it does not show bones in the CT scans. The dark area in the center of the scans are not well defined and are likely due to differences in the density of rock at the middle of the concretion, or the greater mass of rock the rays passed through at the center than the edge of the rock. Last, a key point that Baugh did not reveal in the show is that the "finger" was not found in situ, but rather in a loose gravel pit some distance from Glen Rose. Therefore, like the Burdick print it cannot be reliably linked to an ancient formation, and is of no antievolutionary value, even if it were a real fossilized finger.

78 posted on 02/18/2006 3:59:32 PM PST by trashcanbred (Anti-social and anti-socialist)
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To: PatrickHenry
Don't know if anyone else pointed this out, but it jumped straight at me. No, I haven't read the thread yet to see how many other people noticed.

The Gallup Organization has been polling the public on this issue since 1982, when 38 percent indicated a belief in the creationist explanation of life's origin, 33 percent believed in theistic (God-directed) evolution, and 9 percent chose the “no God” account. The trend has been steadily toward creationism, and by November 2004, 45 percent chose the creationist explanation, 38 percent the theistic evolutionist account, and 13 percent the “no God” explanation.
In 1982, theistic evolution plus atheism outpolled creationism by a bare four points. (33 TE plus 9 A = 42, versus 38 C.) In 2004, it was 38 TE plus 13 A = 51 over 45 percent C. All the numbers cited went up in the interval at the expense of the no-opinion lobby. Not only is the anti-creation percentage margin greater, but it has moved over the fifty percent margin which tells a campaign the undecideds can't move this one.

How does that represent a stready trend toward creationism? Is this guy dreaming?

79 posted on 02/18/2006 4:06:00 PM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: PatrickHenry
From farther down:

Darwin himself had doubts about the viability of natural selection in his study of the human eye. His commentary in The Origin of Species is illuminating:
To suppose that the eye...
OK, never mind. Another lying butthead (from DI?)
80 posted on 02/18/2006 4:08:37 PM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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