Posted on 02/17/2006 5:47:19 PM PST by Mobile Vulgus
"Holt Collier was born a slave and followed his master into battle during the War Between the States, first as a camp servant. His prowess with a rifle and a pistol, however, soon allowed him to be soldier, if unofficially. When his master returned home, he gave Holt a choice of which unit to serve with, and he chose the 9th Texas Cavalry. He rode and fought with the cavalry during the remainder of the war and immediately afterward got involved in several shooting scrapes during the Reconstruction."
--"Orign of the Teddy Bear"
Collier took Teddy Roosevelt bear hunting and was one of Shelby Foote's heroes.
It's a simple question.
Why are you afraid to answer it?
I've answered every one of your posts, now answer one rather simple question.
Why did the Confederate States secede?
He said 100,000+
You better start coming up with thousands at a time, or we'll be here forever.
You've come up with roughly a dozen instances of blacks fighting for the Confederacy.
Not enough to make up a batallion.
Adams Jubilee/
Let's look at that:
"By the adoption and organization of the Constitution of the United States, these principles had been settled: -1. That the affairs of the people of the United States were thenceforth to be administered, not by a confederacy, or mere league of friendship between the sovereign states, but by a government, distributed into the three great departments - legislative, judicial, and executive.
In the calm hours of self-possession, the right of a State to nullify an act of Congress, is too absurd for argument, and too odious for discussion. The right of a state to secede from the Union, is equally disowned by the principles of the Declaration of Independence.
It has been my purpose, Fellow-Citizens, in this discourse to show:-
1. That this Union was formed by a spontaneous movement of the people of thirteen English Colonies; all subjects of the King of Great Britain - bound to him in allegiance, and to the British empire as their country. That the first object of this Union,was united resistance against oppression, and to obtain from the government of their country redress of their wrongs.
2. That failing in this object, their petitions having been spurned, and the oppressions of which they complained, aggravated beyond endurance, their Delegates in Congress, in their name and by their authority, issued the Declaration of Independence - proclaiming them to the world as one people, absolving them from their ties and oaths of allegiance to their king and country - renouncing that country; declared the UNITED Colonies, Independent States, and announcing that this ONE PEOPLE of thirteen united independent states, by that act, assumed among the powers of the earth, that separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitled them.
3. That in justification of themselves for this act of transcendent power, they proclaimed the principles upon which they held all lawful government upon earth to be founded - which principles were, the natural, unalienable, imprescriptible rights of man, specifying among them, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - that the institution of government is to secure to men in society the possession of those rights: that the institution, dissolution, and reinstitution of government, belong exclusively to THE PEOPLE under a moral responsibility to the Supreme Ruler of the universe; and that all the just powers of government are derived from the consent of the governed.
4. That under this proclamation of principles, the dissolution of allegiance to the British king, and the compatriot connection with the people of the British empire, were accomplished; and the one people of the United States of America, became one separate sovereign independent power, assuming an equal station among the nations of the earth.
5. That this one people did not immediately institute a government for themselves. But instead of it, their delegates in Congress, by authority from their separate state legislatures, without voice or consultation of the people, instituted a mere confederacy.
6. That this confederacy totally departed from the principles of the Declaration of independence, and substituted instead of the constituent power of the people, an assumed sovereignty of each separate state, as the source of all its authority.
7. That as a primitive source of power, this separate state sovereignty,was not only a departure from the principles of the Declaration of Independence, but directly contrary to, and utterly incompatible with them.
8. That the tree was made known by its fruits. That after five years wasted in its preparation, the confederation dragged out a miserable existence of eight years more, and expired like a candle in the socket, having brought the union itself to the verge of dissolution.
9. That the Constitution of the United States was a return to the principles of the Declaration of independence, and the exclusive constituent power of the people. That it was the work of the ONE PEOPLE of the United States; and that those United States, though doubled in numbers, still constitute as a nation, but ONE PEOPLE.
10. That this Constitution, making due allowance for the imperfections and errors incident to all human affairs, has under all the vicissitudes and changes of war and peace, been administered upon those same principles, during a career of fifty years.
11. That its fruits have been, still making allowance for human imperfection, a more perfect union, established justice, domestic tranquility, provision for the common defence, promotion of the general welfare, and the enjoyment of the blessings of liberty by the constituent people, and their posterity to the present day.
Lois, you still have not countered with any responses to the following topics:
I look forward to response on each of these topics. The Adams doc has some good reading about secession.
I challenge you to study it and get back to thread.
LOL! I don't need you to repost the Jubilee doc. Discuss your interpretation of Adam's work here.
I provided source docs that disprove your claim. These accounts include Union soldiers, Confederate soldiers, and various researchers.
5. That this one people did not immediately institute a government for themselves. But instead of it, their delegates in Congress, by authority from their separate state legislatures, without voice or consultation of the people, instituted a mere confederacy.
6. That this confederacy totally departed from the principles of the Declaration of independence, and substituted instead of the constituent power of the people, an assumed sovereignty of each separate state, as the source of all its authority.
7. That as a primitive source of power, this separate state sovereignty,was not only a departure from the principles of the Declaration of Independence, but directly contrary to, and utterly incompatible with them.
8. That the tree was made known by its fruits. That after five years wasted in its preparation, the confederation dragged out a miserable existence of eight years more, and expired like a candle in the socket, having brought the union itself to the verge of dissolution.
9. That the Constitution of the United States was a return to the principles of the Declaration of independence, and the exclusive constituent power of the people. That it was the work of the ONE PEOPLE of the United States; and that those United States, though doubled in numbers, still constitute as a nation, but ONE PEOPLE.
ONE PEOPLE...not several sovereign States...ONE PEOPLE, and the dissolution of the Union was not only an abomination to the Founding principles of this nation, but also unconstitutional because the ONE PEOPLE of the UNITED States were the sole source of power, and the dissolution of the Union was a matter for ALL the people of the Union to decide on, not just for the seceding States to act on.
Thanks for helping me prove you wrong.
Bonus points for including where secession is prohibited in the Constitution!
Your surrender is noted.
P.S.
The Confederate negro soldiers never went into action. On March 30th, 31st, and April 1st, the Sentinel reports the enemy "massed in heavy force on our right," cavalry skirmishes at Dinwiddie Court-House, heavy fighting on our right, tremendous artillery firing, pertinacious assaults upon Gordon, a great battle with no particulars, and then-the curtain descends for good and all, and there is no more Southern Confederacy, much less enlistment of negro volunteers and conscripts to do battle for it. Source
Adams: "Thus stands the right. But the indissoluble link of union between the people of the several states of this confederated nation, is after all, not in the right, but in the heart." Should the day come when the affections of the people were alienated from each other, it would be better "for the people of the disunited states to part in friendship...than to be held together by constraint."
ONE PEOPLE...not several sovereign States...ONE PEOPLE, and the dissolution of the Union was not only an abomination to the Founding principles of this nation, but also unconstitutional because the ONE PEOPLE of the UNITED States were the sole source of power, and the dissolution of the Union was a matter for ALL the people of the Union to decide on, not just for the seceding States to act on.
You all lose this fight every time you start it.
You are free to believe as you wish. Authors such as William C. Davis, J.R. Hummel, Jordan and other historians support the fact Black Confederates served. I shared many source accounts on this thread. Thanks for reading them.
I extended the invitation to join another thread. Unless you want to answer some of the open questions I have for you here, I'll see you on the other thread.
You can't both understand Adams, and follow Calhoun.
The parting to be an agreement between the WHOLE of the people of the Union, not forced on the WHOLE of the people by part of the people.
The Union could only be disssolved by a vote of the WHOLE of the people.
The Confederacy surrenders yet again.
He said 100,000+, I challeneged his claim.
Show me 100,000+ black confederate soldiers.
You can't, anymore than you can answer a simple question.
What Secession is is revolution.
The 'right' of revolution is clearly stated in the Declaration.
However a revolution should be because there is no other options and real abuses.
Now, as far as I can tell, the real persons who had a right to revolt were the black slaves, a revolt the South was in constant terror of.
The now totally ignored Tenth Amendment, however, specifically states: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
There is no power to 'secede', only to revolt.
The States were not quasi-nations, they were part of the Union, and they were never independent nations (with the exception of Texas).
It is undeniable that it was far better for the World that the United States of America stayed united in the 19th Century. However, it would also have been far better if the issue had been decided through the rule of law in accordance to what the Constitution actually says than through the deaths of 620,000 Americans..........A total that, in comparison to populations, would today be the equivalent of approximately 5.8 million American deaths.
It would have been far better if the South had realized the immorality of holding 3 million people in bondage in direct violation of their natural rights.
Now here is a future hypothetical question that IMHO recreates the mindset of the South in 1860: Let us say that the Constitution of the European Union is ratified by all present members and that the E.U. Constitution is silent about the issue of secession. Let us say that, in 20 years, Britain is dissatisfied with the European Union and desires to revert to its prior status as a sovereign nation but Germany and France are dead set against that.
The States were never sovereign nations.
The EU is made up of a coalition of nations, which the USA was not.
The States were never nations in their own right, they were always the 'United States Of America.
George Washington wanted to be thought of as an American, not a Virginian.
Does Britain have a right to secede from the European Union? Do France and Germany have the right to keep Britain in the European Union by force of arms?
The analogy is not a correct one.
Both joined the EU as independent nations.
The States had never been nations and had agreed to the US Constitution to make the Union a stronger one, not weaker.
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