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Army silences chaplain after prayer criticism
The Washington Times ^ | 2-14-06 | Julia Duin

Posted on 02/14/2006 11:26:47 AM PST by JZelle

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To: sean327
Chaplains are still held to the same standard regarding chain of command as any other member of the Armed Forces. Your argument doesn't wash. He screwed the pooch on this and he knows it.

Yes, he's held to the same standard, but the issue here is a direct facet of his religion, and therefore also directly impacts his duty before God to adhere to his religious beliefs. The superior issued an arguably illegal order - considering that the chaplain's oath as an officer must coexist with his ordainment as a minister.

He will be punished. Heaven knows the military does not tolerate dissenters well - even when the dissent is warranted. In my opinion, it was warranted in this case.

21 posted on 02/14/2006 12:12:49 PM PST by MortMan (Trains stop at train stations. On my desk is a workstation...)
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To: MineralMan

Would you please cite that rule?


22 posted on 02/14/2006 12:14:58 PM PST by em2vn
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To: MineralMan
"That is the rule"
Tough luck, lots of rules come and go. The Army is no exception.
23 posted on 02/14/2006 12:15:22 PM PST by protest1
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To: protest1
Tough luck, lots of rules come and go. The Army is no exception.

Unless and until the rules change, soldiers (and chaplains) are bound by them.

24 posted on 02/14/2006 12:18:58 PM PST by Potowmack ("The hardest thing in the world to understand is the income tax." - Albert Einstein)
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To: MortMan

You can dissent, but it has to be done right. This man is an officer in the U.S Army, and as such knows how things are done. He knows you can't go whining to a newspaper because you feel an order is wrong. I don't know what the Army calls the process, but in the Marine Corps it's called Request Mast. This is the procedure that would be used in this case.


25 posted on 02/14/2006 12:24:03 PM PST by sean327 (All men are created equal, then some become Marines!)
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To: protest1

"Tough luck, lots of rules come and go. The Army is no exception."

That's quite true. But, while the rules exist, military personnel are required to follow them. Changing them is possible, but there is a process.

Non-denominational services and prayers have been part of the military at public functions for a long, long time. Even back in the late 1960s, when I was in the USAF, functions open to all involved non-denominational prayers for things like invocations and the like.

Nobody has EVER told a chaplain that he could not pray in the name of a deity in chapel services. But, in general functions, like a memorial service, where the attendees might be Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or any of the other faiths that Chaplains are required to minister to, prayers are done in a non-demoninational way, in respect for those in attendance.

That's how it is.


26 posted on 02/14/2006 1:06:14 PM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: MineralMan
Sound more like a man of God who knows who his real "commanding officer" is.
27 posted on 02/14/2006 1:09:40 PM PST by MajorityOfOne
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To: MineralMan
"Changing them is possible, but there is a process. "

Yes and part of the process is going public wither you agree or not.

28 posted on 02/14/2006 1:26:10 PM PST by protest1
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To: protest1

"Yes and part of the process is going public wither you agree or not."

OK, but if you're in the military, "going public" has consequences. If the person accepts those consequences, then more power to him.


29 posted on 02/14/2006 1:29:50 PM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: MineralMan
I think he pretty much knew that as I pointed out in post 20.

Contacted in Iraq yesterday by The Times, Capt. Stertzbach confirmed he had been silenced. "I am not allowed to talk to anyone right now," he said. "There are no hard feelings, and I have to leave it at that."

30 posted on 02/14/2006 1:42:28 PM PST by protest1
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To: colorado tanker
I suppose this guy didn't know when he became a Protestant chaplain that he would be expected to minister to Protestants of all denominations?

The story isn't very clear on that. Is it just Protestants of all denominations, all Christians, or is it all faiths, including Muslims, that must be included in the "non sectarian" prayers. IOW, was he forbidden to pray "In Jesus Name" or to "God the father, son, and holy spirit"?

Some adjustments must be made, as in a Catholic priest conducting services for Russian orthodox soldiers, but to ask a Christan minister to not mention Christ, would be way over the line. It might even constitute an illegal order. Illegal orders need not be obeyed, but you'd best be very confident of your assessment that they are indeed illegal. Just thinking they are isn't enough, the Court Martial must agree that they were.

31 posted on 02/14/2006 4:27:42 PM PST by El Gato
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To: El Gato
The story isn't very clear on that. Is it just Protestants of all denominations, all Christians, or is it all faiths, including Muslims, that must be included in the "non sectarian" prayers. IOW, was he forbidden to pray "In Jesus Name" or to "God the father, son, and holy spirit"?

I take that back, the story does say, on page 2.

Capt. Stertzbach cited a Dec. 17 memorial service for a soldier at which he was asked to pray.

When he told one chaplain he intended to pray in the name of Jesus Christ, he was stricken from the service program. A senior officer had to intervene to allow Capt. Stertzbach a time in the service to pray as he wished.

Even that prayer had to be prefaced with "in Thy name we pray" before the chaplain could add, "And in Jesus' name, I pray."

Sort of throws a different light on the subject. If the soldier was a Christian, and why else would a Protestant Chaplin be included in the service, rather than a Rabbi or Imam, then that soldier deserved to prayed over "in Jesus Name".

These are after all Chaplains, not Political Commissars.

32 posted on 02/14/2006 4:34:57 PM PST by El Gato
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To: Gamecock; ladtx

It wasn't really clear to me whether LTC Wright was a technical chain supervisor or a command chain supervisor. Chaplains must answer to their line commanders and also to a chain of supervisory chaplains. My guess is that it's his command chain supervisor, probably his battalion commander.

If he did not attempt to go through his chain of command and his technical chain BEFORE he spoke to a newspaper, then the chaplain is wrong. Obviously, he knew his praying in Jesus' name at a command required event would be an issue. Otherwise, he wouldn't have brought it up. (The old adage: better to ask forgiveness than permission.)

He should have asked to be relieved of the assignment if he could not in good conscience perform it.

However, he should not be forced to participate in a government created neutral religion. If he is required to pray, then he should be permitted to be himself.

ALL OF THIS takes a back seat initially to whether or not he attempted first to address this throughout his chain of command.

His army career is probably over unless he's a baby chaplain. As a battalion chaplain in an Arty slot, that's a good possibility.


33 posted on 02/14/2006 8:51:30 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: El Gato

According to the story, the order was overruled by a senior officer, but this guy still went public against his chain of command. Like I said, this guy doesn't seem to be Army material.


34 posted on 02/15/2006 8:28:22 AM PST by colorado tanker (We need more "chicken-bleep Democrats" in the Senate!)
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