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Discovery's Creation [The rise & fall of the Discovery Institute]
Seattle Weekly ^ | 01 February 2006 | Roger Downey

Posted on 02/01/2006 6:32:25 AM PST by PatrickHenry

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To: Right Wing Professor
"The 16S ribosomal phylogenetic tree would make no sense. Why, if we are descended from two separately created organisms, do all our ribosomes fall on a single phylogenetic tree?"

Efficient coding by the Designer. Reusability. Wise planning which took into consideration interdependence within organisms and the ecosystem.

As someone who has (in a prior profession) developed several software programs which were integrated, I would expect code driven functionality to follow a similar paradigm. Some companies are all Microsoft, some are Linux, some use both for their respective benefits. Some use other systems altogether. None of them find it necessary to reinvent the wheel and design a new operating system for each proprietary application.

It might be possible to predict unknown code sequences of some software being reverse engineered. Doing so would not imply that all software having similar features was derived from some common ancestor of all computer programs. That will continue to be true even if programs become advanced enough to meet the definitions of intelligent or living. It will be true even if they acquire the ability to think, self repair, self improve, assimilate and replicate.

What would falsify UCD? Not just particular mechanisms, pathways, etc. which can be replaced ad hoc. Tell me what yet to be found data, if discovered, would cause you to completely abandon the notion in favor of a diverse and distinct ancestry.
241 posted on 02/01/2006 9:42:24 PM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: Right Wing Professor
"Better check the latest memo from DI. UCD is now in. Get with the program."

Discovery Institute does not dictate my views. I certainly do not buy into all the views being promoted under the ID label. I also accept a respectable amount evolutionary theory as valid. UCD is not part of that.
242 posted on 02/01/2006 9:47:33 PM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: Oztrich Boy

Ancestry did not cause the rejection. Present immunology and differences in genetics caused it.

UCD might prove useful in helping to familiarize a doctor with similarities and differences between diverse life forms, but this is not an indication that UCD caused these differences and similarities. I can organize words alphabetically, but that has no bearing on how the words actually originated.

Common ancestry does not necessarily make rejection less likely. Take blood transfusion. A close relative will not necessarily be a better donor candidate than an unrelated stranger. What matters here is the characteristics of what is donated, not how closely related the donor actually is to the recipient.


243 posted on 02/01/2006 9:50:34 PM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: plain talk; Ichneumon; Elsie

Plain Talk...I really cannot figure out what is wrong with you....what Ichneumon posts is not spam, but rather valuable information, which I, along with many others, do appreciate...if you dont like it, just dont read it...just scroll right past it, like an adult, instead of whining and complaining so much...

The creationists often like to post reams and reams of Scriptures...that is also fine, if they feel that it boosts their own particular beliefs....

Everyone posts in their own way, and unless Jim Robinson comes aboard the thread, and tells someone to stop posting lengthy posts, I would say this issue is really none of your business...

If anyone, Ichneumon, or lets say Elsie(taking posters from both sides of the issue), wants to post lengthy posts, then so be it...many will read what they post, and contemplate and learn and think...and many will scroll right past what they posted and not read a single word...

So why dont you just stop beating a dead horse on this matter, and you post like you want, and let other posters post in the manner they wish...and stop whining so much, you remind me of a little baby, who wants his way, and will not stop acting up until he gets it...


244 posted on 02/01/2006 9:58:08 PM PST by andysandmikesmom
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To: microgood
Just stating that it is really impossible to know what happened 100 million years ago on this planet is a good start. All historical sciences (evolution, big bang, continental drift, etc.) should have a big disclaimer on them since their results cannot be directly tested or verified.

You are incorrect.

It is not impossible to "know what happened 100 million years ago", it's just not possible to know what happened with video tape resolution.

It's possible to determine ancient riverbeds and ocean coasts. It's possible to read fossils for what species existed, and chart the changes caused by evolution.

Your other big mistake is lumping evolution, continental drift and the big bang into the same "impossible to know" pile. Of the three, evolution is by far the most confirmed, with multiple cross verifications.

I believe the big bang is the the most speculative, with multiple layers of guesswork piled on one another, and with no resolution between competing views of physics like quantum mechanics vs. relativity. Physicists don't even understand how gravity works yet.

As for continental drift, it's not rocket science to match up sediment layers in various places, and correlate current movement with RTK-GPS systems. Continents do drift, because the real time GPS demonstrates it, the only question is how far they've drifted, from where, and for how long, and the sediment matching tells us.

The bottom line is you believe that historical science is not valid, and you are wrong about that. The different forms of historical science have different reliabilities and accuracies, but they are genuine science. Which is more than Genesis is.

245 posted on 02/01/2006 10:08:25 PM PST by narby (Hillary! The Wicked Witch of the Left)
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To: Oztrich Boy
O Timothy,keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and opposition of science falsely so called (1Tim.6:20) An instruction that had a quite specific meaning ing the First Century, but today only smugifies the wilfully ignorant

No, an instruction that is for every generation that deals with those who try to use science and learning to reject their Creator.(Rom.1:20-22)

246 posted on 02/01/2006 11:02:24 PM PST by fortheDeclaration (Gal. 4:16)
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To: JCEccles
ID is here to stay. for sure. Probably undergo a name change though to something like Intelligent Evolution or Sudden Origin Theory The debate has just begun.

from the article:

A month later, the board mandated that starting in January 2005, ninth-grade biology teachers would be required to read to their students a four-paragraph statement encouraging students to look into alternatives to Darwin and suggesting Of Pandas and People (available in the school library) as a good place to start. Even though the new policy did not include active teaching of intelligent-design theory, Discovery Institute fellows issued a warning that the policy went too far and might, in fact, damage the cause rather than further it.

So, first they encourage "teach the controversy" but when the Dover board tries to do just that, DI gets nervous and wants them to chicken out.
Does DI want the controversy taught or was that just a clever but empty slogan designed to promote themselves instead of the so-called new theory?

Any meaningful debate is done. The Iders lost, got caught lying, and thanks to Behe and other experts ie- guys with books to sell, the notion that ID was a valid scientific theory ended up with egg on it's face.

247 posted on 02/01/2006 11:56:52 PM PST by Deadshot Drifter
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To: Liberty Wins
Frankly, why would anybody want to believe one's existence was an accidental, meaningless blob of cells doomed to ignominious extinction?

That's not what TOE says at all. As I have seen many many times in my short time here a good number of Freepers, not to mention Catholics, are devout Christians who also recognize the TOE as being the best explanation for how God created.

248 posted on 02/02/2006 12:19:19 AM PST by Deadshot Drifter
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To: PatrickHenry
What a great read giving a look into the inner workings of the DI and the personal politics of the people behind it.
The posts declaring that ID hasn't yet begun to fight!! were as always, entertaining.

We will delight in the weeping and lamentations of their women. lol

249 posted on 02/02/2006 12:44:03 AM PST by Deadshot Drifter
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"Beware the man of one book" placemark


250 posted on 02/02/2006 1:05:52 AM PST by dread78645 (Intelligent Design. It causes people to misspeak)
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To: Deadshot Drifter
ID was DI's goose that layed the golden egg. As long as there was a controversy DI could tout teaching, the money was rolling in. Now that ID has been exposed by its very proponents as a non-scientific fraud, the pipeline will dry up.

IOW, ID was a con game; its creators knew it, and its true believers will continue to refuse to accept this fact.

251 posted on 02/02/2006 3:42:53 AM PST by Junior (Identical fecal matter, alternate diurnal period)
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To: Oztrich Boy; unlearner

You might also point out the role of common descent in picking out suitable test subjects for certain medical or clinical experiments and trials.


252 posted on 02/02/2006 3:51:49 AM PST by Junior (Identical fecal matter, alternate diurnal period)
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To: Junior
ID was a con game; its creators knew it, and its true believers will continue to refuse to accept this fact.

Ah, but what a totally ignominious defeat! Intentionally and falsely trying to pass off Pandas as a science book is a far bigger and far more outrageous fraud, and will do more to destroy the ID charlatans at the DI, than a whole army of Piltdown Men.

As Plaintiffs meticulously and effectively presented to the Court, Pandas went through many drafts, several of which were completed prior to and some after the Supreme Court's decision in Edwards [Edwards v. Aguillard], which held that the Constitution forbids teaching creationism as science. By comparing the pre and post Edwards drafts of Pandas, three astonishing points emerge: (1) the definition for creation science in early drafts is identical to the definition of ID; (2) cognates of the word creation (creationism and creationist), which appeared approximately 150 times were deliberately and systematically replaced with the phrase ID; and (3) the changes occurred shortly after the Supreme Court held that creation science is religious and cannot be taught in public school science classes in Edwards. This word substitution is telling, significant, and reveals that a purposeful change of words was effected without any corresponding change in content, which directly refutes FTE's [FTE = the Foundation for Thought and Ethics, the publisher of Pandas] argument that by merely disregarding the words "creation" and "creationism," FTE expressly rejected creationism in Pandas. In early pre-Edwards drafts of Pandas, the term "creation" was defined as "various forms of life that began abruptly through an intelligent agency with their distinctive features intact – fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, and wings, etc," the very same way in which ID is defined in the subsequent published versions.
Source: Kitzmiller et al. v Dover Area School District et al..

From now on -- thanks to the geniuses at DI -- when the creationists raise the phony issue of Piltdown Man, or Nebraska Man, or Peppered Moths, or Haeckel's Embryos, none of which amounts to anything anyway, the rational side of the argument has been given the all-time slam-dunk response -- Pandas!

253 posted on 02/02/2006 4:01:46 AM PST by PatrickHenry (Virtual Ignore for trolls, lunatics, dotards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: Syncretic
I find evolution arrogant and defies the very laws these atheist worship. Evolution is NOT scientific. Evolutionists weren't there. Evolutionists can't test their hypothesis or repeat it. It's all guesswork that neatly fits into their world view that there is no god. What they propose is so far fetched that it is laughable when the evidence doesn't support any of it. I find evolution to be appalling and insists the Judeo Christian God. He is no "ape".
254 posted on 02/02/2006 4:12:02 AM PST by nmh (Intelligent people believe in Intelligent Design (God))
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To: Syncretic

Yes, their defense of evolution certainly isn't based on science and there is NO evidence to support their hypothesis.


255 posted on 02/02/2006 4:13:36 AM PST by nmh (Intelligent people believe in Intelligent Design (God))
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To: connectthedots
Sorry for the late reply, I had to attend to family matters last night. Your quoted material is a relatively fair presentation. Note that it contemplates the permutations of precedent from persuasive to binding, and duly notes Blackstone's pragmatic application, which has, all these years later, a more profound impact than one would imagine.

The inherent fuzziness in the concept is due principally to the appellate review process, by which parties to a lawsuit decide whether a higher court will review a trial court decision, and by which an appellate court is constrained in its review by principles of deference to the trial court judge and jury. This often necessitates the use of trial (or district) court opinions as precedential vehicles, since a great many decisions (and consequently a great many fact patterns and practical applications of law to fact) remain either unreviewed by a higher court or reviewed in only a limited way.

Note that the Dover decision itself was not appealed.

256 posted on 02/02/2006 4:14:13 AM PST by atlaw
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To: Right Wing Professor
Too bad you're hopelessly stuck on step 1.

Over 400 Scientists Convinced by New Scientific Evidence That Darwinian Evolution is Deficient

257 posted on 02/02/2006 5:08:04 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: PatrickHenry; connectthedots
Maybe he meant what he predicted the day before the ruling, in this detailed post (#34): I think anyone who expects a clear cut victory is going to be disappointed. I think it will come down to something like this ....

It's still Fantasyland stuff which utterly ignores what happened in the trial in favor of the poster's fond hopes.

258 posted on 02/02/2006 5:33:02 AM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: andysandmikesmom

You can post however you wish. And if it is the result of a voluminous copy and paste function I can point out that it is spam and childish.


259 posted on 02/02/2006 5:37:35 AM PST by plain talk
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To: Virginia-American
Reminds me of the "formerly life-long Republicans" on CSPAN.

I can't stop hearing some of them in my mind. Urban soccer moms reading with aching slowness from a seminar handout card in their sad parody of a trailer park redneck drawl.

Me an' mah huzbin been Repullicans fur thurty years, but no mower. Kin Starr has gone too far. They don' keer about mah hayulth keer or a wommin's raht to chews. All they thank about is sex, sex, sex! Gonna be Dimmacrats all the way from now on!
No other event has pointed up to me as those days did that there are people willing to lie about who they are and what they believe in order to influence others in a certain way. The shill in the crowd. Quite often not that hard to spot.
260 posted on 02/02/2006 5:54:07 AM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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