Intelligent Design belittles God, Vatican director says

Catholic Online ^ | 30 January 2006 | Mark Lombard

[Aquinasfan]

I am equally at a loss to find yours to mine.

Since you refuse to answer, this conversation is over.

Too bad I didn't consult the dictionary earlier. It could have saved us a lot of trouble.

The Oxford English Dictionary defines health as "soundness of body or mind; that condition in which its functions are duly and efficiently discharged".

du·ly adv.

In a proper manner: a duly appointed official.

[steve-b]

this conversation is over

I stride off, Aquinasfan's threat to bite my knees off ringing in my ears.

[CobaltBlue]

Birth control pills are hormones which mimic the natural hormones which the body secretes in order to achieve certain outcomes.

When menopausal women take synthetic estrogens in order to stave off heart disease and alleviate the unpleasant aspects of menopause (hot flashes, "brain fog," insomnia, emotional lability) -- are they taking poison? How about post-hysterectomy women?

When elderly men take synthetic testosterone in order to continue to have full sexual function, not to mention improved wound healing and normal muscle mass -- are they taking poison?

What about men with prostate cancer, who take estrogens in order to stop the growth of the cancer? Is that poison?

[Aquinasfan]

Birth control pills are hormones which mimic the natural hormones which the body secretes in order to achieve certain outcomes.

When menopausal women take synthetic estrogens in order to stave off heart disease...

Granting your premise, then in this case, can the medication be properly called "birth control," since the primary objective is "staving off heart disease"?

My assertion regarded "the pill" when it is used as a method of birth control, which is by far its most common use.

In fact, "the pill's" usefulness for treating disease is extremely limited, according to the opinion of doctors that I trust.

[steve-b]

My assertion regarded "the pill" when it is used as a method of birth control, which is by far its most common use.

And caffeine when it is used as a method of sleep control, which is by far its most common use.

[aNYCguy]

Anesthesia is properly used as part of a surgical operation. Surgical operations are done to restore the body to proper operation.

I can think of three glaring problems for you, since you've insisted on going down this road:

1. Tylenol is used at home, when no "greater good" surgery is being performed. It is used for no other reasons than to suppress the body's immune and pain responses. I notice you completely ignored my previous point that you have defined Tylenol as a "poison."

2. If a surgery is being performed for something you might not consider necessary for "proper function" (say, cosmetic reconstructive face surgery after a fire injury) is the anesthesia in that case defined as a "poison," and therefore immoral to administer?

3. Since you've gone into the subjective waters of "overall good health" as a justification for using drugs which bring the body to an "improper" state, one can easily see that birth control is not a poison if a doctor agrees with a woman's assessment that not being pregnant and unmarried at 20 is better to her overall health than, say, being pregnant and unmarried at age 20.

[aNYCguy]

Let's go down a list of conditions and see if you consider them to represent a state of health... AIDS, Arthritis asthma, etc.

No, I don't. Question for you: Do you consider sickle cell anemia to be a state of health or unhealth?

[Aquinasfan]

No, I don't. Question for you: Do you consider sickle cell anemia to be a state of health or unhealth?

Sickle cell disease? Yes, I consider it to be a disease, a disorder, or ill health.

I know where you're headed, so let me speed this up a bit. The fact that I have an autoimmune disease that happens to protect me from colds, since my immune system is overactive, doesn't negate the fact that my immune system is in a state of disorder or ill health. The disorder causes more bodily harm than good, which is why it's considered to be a disease.

[aNYCguy]

The disorder causes more bodily harm than good, which is why it's considered to be a disease.

When it's preventing one's death by malaria, I think it would generally be considered to be doing more good than harm. In fact, I think people would be downright offended if you told them that being dead is their "proper" state.

[aNYCguy]

Ping to my post #266. I await your explanation of why Tylenol is a poison and not a medicine.

[steve-b]

I await your explanation of why Tylenol is a poison and not a medicine.

I daresay that will be only a warmup act for his explanation for caffeine.

[Virginia-American]

RE: Sickle-cell

Sickle-cell **anemia** is a disease, often fatal

Sickle-cell **trait** is not. It confers resistance to malaria. In fact, the original study of this noted that black airmen with the trait (in the US Air Force) had no more trouble than anyone else dealing with high-altitude flight.

The trait is being heterozygous for hemoglobin-s; it's a recessive gene, so there is plenty of normal hemoglobin

The anemia is being homozygous for hemoglobin-s; there's no normal hemoglobin, the erythrocytes are sickle-shaped instead of round, and you're very sick.

If one parent is normal, and one has the trait, half the children are normal, and half have the trait.

If both parents have the trait, 1/4 the children are normal, 1/4 have sickle-cell anemia, and 1/2 have the trait.

[Aquinasfan]

When it's preventing one's death by malaria, I think it would generally be considered to be doing more good than harm.

A list of complications resulting from sickle cell disease:

recurrent aplastic and hemolytic crises resulting in anemia and gallstones
multisystem disease (kidney, liver, lung)
narcotic abuse
splenic sequestration syndrome
acute chest syndrome
erectile dysfunction (as a result of priapism)
blindness/visual impairment
neurologic symptoms and stroke
joint destruction
gallstones
infection, including pneumonia, cholecystitis
(gallbladder), osteomyelitis (bone), and urinary tract infection
parvovirus B19 infection resulting in aplastic crisis
tissue death of the kidney
loss of function of the spleen
leg ulcers
death

MedicinePlus Medical Encyclopedia

I suspect this is why sickle cell disease is considered by medical doctors as a disease.

[Aquinasfan]

1. Tylenol is used at home, when no "greater good" surgery is being performed. It is used for no other reasons than to suppress the body's immune and pain responses.

Is the immune system overactive, in these cases? If not, then this effect would be bad. But if the drug is being used to minimize pain associated with having a cold, then its effect would be good. I don't know much about Tylenol. I prefer Advil myself.

I notice you completely ignored my previous point that you have defined Tylenol as a "poison."

Sorry. I don't know how Tylenol works. Maybe you could explain it to me. One thing I do know is that people take it to minimize the symptoms associated with cold or flu. So at least its object is beneficial, unlike "the pill," the object of which is induced sterility, or improper function of the reproductive system.

2. If a surgery is being performed for something you might not consider necessary for "proper function" (say, cosmetic reconstructive face surgery after a fire injury) is the anesthesia in that case defined as a "poison," and therefore immoral to administer?

Reconstructive surgery is reconstructive. It is a good, because it is the restoration of proper function and appearance. The good outweighs the evil (privation).

If you want to argue whether health consists of the "proper operation" of the body, you can take it up with the Oxford English Dictionary.

The Oxford English Dictionary defines health as "soundness of body or mind; that condition in which its functions are duly [duly means "in a proper manner"] and efficiently discharged".

3. Since you've gone into the subjective waters of "overall good health" as a justification for using drugs which bring the body to an "improper" state, one can easily see that birth control is not a poison if a doctor agrees with a woman's assessment that not being pregnant and unmarried at 20 is better to her overall health than, say, being pregnant and unmarried at age 20.

LOL! Is not sleeping around an option?

Use of the birth control pill to prevent conception is analogous to binging and purging. Rather than binging and purging, why not eat a reasonable amount of food? Rather than using birth control, why not reserve intercourse for marriage? After all, the child naturally begotten by the marital union requires care and nurturing to fully develop, and this is best done by his natural parents.

Thomas Aquinas stated, "It is clear that offspring is the most essential thing in marriage, secondly fidelity, and thirdly [the] sacrament; even as to man it is more essential to be in nature than to be in grace, although it is more excellent to be in grace" (Summa Theologiae IIIb:49:3).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, "By its very nature the institution of marriage and married love is ordered to the procreation and education of the offspring, and it is in them that it finds its crowning glory" (CCC 1652). "Married couples should regard it as their proper mission to transmit human life and to educate their children" (CCC 2367).

So the purpose of marriage is primarily the procreation and education of offspring. The purpose of the reproductive system is reproduction. And the pleasurable nature of intercourse is ordered toward reproduction.

I leave it to you to argue against common sense, and the dictionary.

[Virginia-American]

I suspect this is why sickle cell disease is considered by medical doctors as a disease.

Just don't confuse it with having one copy of the gene; that's a tremendous benefit.

[steve-b]

Use of caffeine to prevent sleep is analogous to binging and purging. Rather than binging and purging, why not eat a reasonable amount of food? Rather than using caffeine, why not sleep more the night before you need to stay up late?

Sorry, you're still stuck behind the eight ball.

[steve-b]

One thing I do know is that people take it to minimize the symptoms associated with cold or flu.

Nice try, but I'm not letting you evade the issue (which is that the "symptoms" to which you refer are the natural and normal operation of the body to crank up the respiritory filters in order to flush out existing infection and prevent additional ones).

[aNYCguy]

if the drug [Tylenol] is being used to minimize pain associated with having a cold, then its effect would be good.

Your standards are getting more and more out of control. You say that birth control is evil poison because it interferes with your aesthetic ideal of strangers' reproductive systems being "proper," but when it's pointed out that you've defined Tylenol as a poison you say "Uh, but it makes you feel good so it's medicine." You very clearly have two different standards, one bizarre and Draconian (That which makes the body "improper" according to Aquinasfan is poison) and one permissive (If it stops pain from illness it's medicine). Very convenient to get to choose between those standards based on how a given case rubs you.

I will explain this one more time: Fever is your body's natural and, I assume, "Aquinasfan proper" immune response to an infection. It is thought that among other things it makes the body a less hospitable environment for the pathogens, allowing them to be elimated by the white blood cells more easily. Tylenol is usually taken for the sole purpose of supressing this response in order to make one feel good, while potentially harming the body's ability to fight infection. By the standard to which you're holding birth control, you have very, very clearly defined Tylenol as a poison.

I leave it to you to argue against common sense, and the dictionary.

The irony here almost knocked me away from my desk.

[steve-b]

It is thought that among other things it makes the body a less hospitable environment for the pathogens, allowing them to be elimated by the white blood cells more easily.

"Thought", schmaught. It's easy enough to watch samples of pathogens at normal body temperature and at a few degrees above normal body temperature and note which ones (the former) are more robust.

[steve-b]

You say that birth control is evil poison because it interferes with your aesthetic ideal of strangers' reproductive systems being "proper," but when it's pointed out that you've defined Tylenol as a poison you say "Uh, but it makes you feel good so it's medicine." You very clearly have two different standards, one bizarre and Draconian (That which makes the body "improper" according to Aquinasfan is poison) and one permissive (If it stops pain from illness it's medicine). Very convenient to get to choose between those standards based on how a given case rubs you.

Yep.

My caffeine example is even deadlier to Aquinasfan's argument, since the only use for the stuff is to suppress the body's natural sleep cycle so that it conforms to the convenience of the user -- which is precisely his objection to contraception. (Also, as noted upthread, the latter has other medical uses that don't fall wtihin the scope of Aquinasfan's objection; AFAIK the former doesn't.)