Germany should build own Nukes (ex-Defense Minister)

Various | 26.01.2006 | Self

[Michael81Dus]

Iran will be stopped by force. And it looks as if the Iranians are those who don´t want to negotiate.

[Michael81Dus]

Prussia has become famous for its efficient wars, but fact is, that France and Britain each fought more wars than Prussia between 1700 and 1945.

[Pyro7480]

Japan has enough nuclear material and know-how to build a nuclear arsenal in less than 2 years if they wanted.

[x]

I guess he's serious, but "Germans and Nuclear Weapons" sounds more like a series on the History Channel or a James Bond retrospective on TNT than a real policy initiative -- more pop culture than real politics, at least to a lot of Americans.

[moose2004]

I agree, and that terrifies the Chinese and the North Koreans.

[CatoRenasci]

No question the Preussen are good at war and efficient as well, and your point takes nothing away from a claim the Germans are (generally regarded as) more militaristic than anyone else in Europe.

Britons may sing of ruling the waves, but it is Prussia (Schiller) that shouts In Staub mit allen Feinden Brandeburgs.

I will not defend anything about the French except their cuisine, wine and some of their art and music.

[Michael81Dus]

It is an important distiction to be made: are saying that Germans are generally viewed as more militaristic than any other European nation (which is undoubtly true) or are you saying that Germans actually are more militaristic?

[kaiser80]

are saying that Germans are generally viewed as more militaristic than any other European nation (which is undoubtly true)

I wouldn't be so sure about that, especially among neighbours, people who know something about present Germany. I, for example, as a Pole don't view Germans as militaristic, rather excessively unmilitaristic in upbringing, political views and personal interests. Or maybe you are excessively carefull in personal Pole-2-German relations (just like with history). I learned it from my own experience.

[BeHoldAPaleHorse]

"Do you really think that anyone of these four countries would have objections against a nuclear-armed Germany?"

Russia and Britain could probably name a few.

[Michael81Dus]

No, I said that we´re not militaristic, just viewed as such. Of course, those who have personal contacts with us leave their prejudices behind.

[kaiser80]

No, I said that we´re not militaristic, just viewed as such.

And I said that you are not necessery viewed as such. Maybe not clear enough, but that was what I was thinking.

[CatoRenasci]

Indeed, they are separate points although not unrelated. As you note, no one would disagree about the perception of the Germans as more militaristic than their neighbors. As to the reality, I don't know any more. I think it was certainly true until about 1970 (by which time most surviving veterans of WWII passed beyond even reserve military age), but I think traditional Prussian militarism and fascism were "bred out" of the generations born after the late 1950s. Instead, there has been militant Marxism, Greenism and anti-Americanism in those generations.

Over the years, I've been fortunate to have known many Germans, both here and in Germany, who came of age throughout the earlier parts of the 20th century, including veteran officers of both World Wars, members of the Hochadel, including many who lived through the Nazizeit as opponents (and sometimes exiles) and as participants, or at least their near relatives. My knowledge of those born during and after the war comes primarily from two close friends (one born during the war, the other in the early '50s), both of whom bore Schmisse obtained from Mensur, and who introduced me among their circles. Possibly not representative of the current generation of young Germans, but certainly not unrepresentative of my own contemporaries.

[BMCDA]

A German or Japanese nuclear program would be completed in no time without any major hiccups.

With Japan that's most likely correct but in Germany you can't even build new nuclear power plants, let alone nuclear weapons.

[BMCDA]

Instead, there has been militant Marxism, Greenism and anti-Americanism in those generations.

And you can add extreme Luddism to your list, although one could argue that this Luddism is just a corollary of Greenism.

[Petronski]

Somewhere, Leo Szilard is clenching his fist.

[CatoRenasci]

Yeah, I'd call the Luddites variant (deviant?) Greens. But a certain Luddite romanaticizing of the simple past -- whether the playing at Cowboys and Indians ala Karl May stories, an almost Rousseauan fascination with the primative Teutons in the forest primeval or the pseudo-Aryan primitivism of the Hitler Jugend -- has long held a strong fascination in the German mind, dating at least to the late 18th century with Goethe and Schiller.

[wolf78]

"With Japan that's most likely correct but in Germany you can't even build new nuclear power plants, let alone nuclear weapons."

Well, you should just read up on the Forschungsreaktor München II in Garching.

That reactor works with 93% enriched uranium, which is not only categorized as highly enriched uranium (>20% U235), no, this IS weapons grade uranium.

The reactor uses approx. 40kg per year, supplies Germany probably bought some 5-10 years ago from Russia. So there should be plenty of weapons grad uranium lying around, considering you only need around 15kg for a small bomb.

Convinced?

Hell, Bavaria might already be a nuclear power (the "Strauss" legacy) and the rest of Germany just doesn't know ;-) !

[BMCDA]

Well, that's not exactly what I meant. There has always been a broad fascination with science and technology even if a sizable part of the population held romantic views of the past. The time around the turn of the last century is a good example but also during the Weimar Republic and even the Third Reich people weren't as opposed to new technology as they are today (just try to imagine Wernher von Braun and the Verein fuer Raumschiffahrt in present-day Germany).

What I thought of is this modern kind of Luddism that is pervasive to the western world. Only in Germany it is much more extreme than in other western nations, at least that's my experience.
For instance, in every country there are people who are opposed to nuclear energy or biotech in general but only in Germany there is this visceral rejection of everything that pertains to the above.

[BMCDA]

I'm quite familiar with the FRM-II in Garching and I know that Germany, just as Japan, is technically able to build nuclear weapons but if you read my post again you'll see that's not what I meant.

Except of course, you think I deny the capability of Germany to build nuclear power plants ;-)

[wolf78]

IMHO the main problem in Germany is not so much Luddism, but rather the typically German "boom or bust" mentality. Other than Italians, Germans cannot really handle problems, so they easily fall into a kind of mass depression. The rise of of the Greens in the 1980s and the general sense that "Things can only get worse" after reunification has a paralizing effect on Germany as a whole. But if you look into to engineering faculties of, say, the TU Munich, you will still find that elitist spirit, which is so very German (at least among engineers).

If you can read German, I can recommend the book "Kulturpessimismus als politische Gefahr" by Fritz Stein as an introduction to the German psyche.