The high cost of losing our religion

Sydney Morning Herald ^ | January 19, 2005 | Julia Baird jbaird@smh.com.au

[Cruz]

"In fact they do not have the intellectual potential to move anything in politics or economy. Therefore they never gain any power. They can torch some cars but they can not turn France into a muslim caliphathe."

It is always refreshing to get a different viewpoint. I understand in the near term, France will not become a muslim caliphathe. In the long term however, demographics will become a major factor in why France will become an islamic state as will some other European states.

I have many concerns about Europe. With regards to muslims overrunning your countries and taking power, what say you about these two factors.....

1. Muslims immigrate in large numbers to European states on a yearly basis.
2. Muslims have a very high birthrate while in European countries while native Europeans have very low birthrates.

Thanks in advance.

[Atlantic Bridge]

Steyn is always brilliant. Anyway his conclusions are only half true if we talk about Germany. The reason for this is that he predicts that all immigration into my country is islamic. This is definitly wrong. In the meantime only a very limited number of Turks or other muslims is flowing into Germany. Most of them through marriages.

Since the beginning 80ties we have growing immigration rates from eastern Europe. Former Russians, Ukrainians and Poles with German heritage (so called Spätaussiedler) are mixing into our population. A interesting graphic:

Although it is true that the Turks have a much bigger offspring than the average German, you should not forget that over the time the young Turks adopt the western style of living. It is very unlikely that they start a broad jihad against other Germans.

Furthermore political power is a question of education and know-how. All those immigrants who are a problem seem to be trapped in the lower class of the society. Maybe they can start some riots, but they will never be able to topple our system. BTW - most of them do not want to do this anyway since they would destroy their own livelihood in this case.

Espechially in the UK things are more dangerous due to the numberous moslems from Pakistan. There is a simular situation in France with their north Africans. These guys are gung ho to spread their religion with all means. But - until now those idiots weren't even able to do some effective terrorism in Europe. Maybe you know that it is extremely easy to cause really a lot of trouble in a civil society as long as you act intelligent. Until now there was only one really massive blow to western civilisation: 9/11. This is a good indicator to their collective incompetence. The background for their intellectual failure is also clear to me: Somebody who believes in their interpretation of the Koran and into their form of Islam anyway must be a complete moron.

Of course we have to be careful and we have to steer against dangerous developments. Believe it or not - the German "Verfassungsschutz" is quite effective in dealing with islamist scum. On the other hand there is no reason for panic. Things are under control and they will stay under control.

[Atlantic Bridge]

Take a look at my #20 and #22.

[VOA]

bump

[isaiah55version11_0]

I must say that a strong Germany would give me hope, but could Germany Stand alone if everything went south for your neighbors plus half the problem internally that Steyn describes?

BTW - most of them do not want to do this anyway since they would destroy their own livelihood in this case.

Careful with this. This is what the intel community calls mirror imaging. You are applying your ways of thinking to others. It is also why the Democrats in this county keep losing elections.

Something to think about. Durring the American Revolution roughly 1/3 wanted to break from England. 1/3 didn’t care and 1/3 were loyal to England. We are were we are today because that first 3rd were willing to fight and die for it (We also had some great help and training from a German officer). History has also downplayed our Founders God Fearing Faith, but it was a big component in the Equation. With the advent of modern weapons, fewer people are needed to wreak havoc. I have faith in the Germans ability to land crushing blows to internal enemies if need be. But when this terns into an internal attrition war, I have far les faith.

Turks adopt the western style of living. It is very unlikely that they start a broad jihad against other Germans.

These would be the 1/3 that don't care and won't help you.

Maybe they can start some riots, but they will never be able to topple our system.

Perhaps not today, but numbers, time, and willingness to get ones hands bloody tips the scales to their favor.

I do hope/prey that I am wrong, and would love you to convince me that I am.

[Atlantic Bridge]

Something to think about. Durring the American Revolution roughly 1/3 wanted to break from England. 1/3 didn’t care and 1/3 were loyal to England. We are were we are today because that first 3rd were willing to fight and die for it (We also had some great help and training from a German officer). History has also downplayed our Founders God Fearing Faith, but it was a big component in the Equation. With the advent of modern weapons, fewer people are needed to wreak havoc. I have faith in the Germans ability to land crushing blows to internal enemies if need be. But when this terns into an internal attrition war, I have far les faith.

The thing is, that maybe 3% (this is a extremly high supposition) of the German Turks are extreme, dangerous islamists that are willing to spread their religion with all means. Today we have a population of 82,431,390 people in Germany. 2.4% are etnic Turks. That means that we have 1,978,113 Turks living in my country and 59,363 are extreme islamists. Therefore we have to deal with some foul 0,072% of our population.

Even if 20% of our Turkish compatriots would tend to dangerous ideas we had a problem with 0,48% of our population. It will take 68 times of their current number (which is over-, over-, over-, overstated in this worst case supposition) until they reach 1/3 of all Germans.

You can check all those numbers in the CIA factbook: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/gm.html

Can you imagine how ridicoulos the whole discussion about "Eurarabia", "Dhimmitude" and "Muslim toppling of Europe" from the German view is?

[Cincinatus' Wife]

Just a question: Is Arnold Schwarzenegger a bad American because he is not born in California?

***Smile***

We still wonder why he picked a Kennedy to marry but then maybe they brought out the best in each other.

[Cincinatus' Wife]

P.S.

They certainly made a few babies.

[Louis Foxwell]

Our country has to celebrate families guided by a strong moral compass.

______________

Amen, Sister.

[A. Pole]

It is obvious that the negative birth-rate in Germany makes it nessecary that we have immigration from the outside.

But it might be that German nation will cease to exist, whether the name will be there or not. Where are the Christian nations of Asia Minor(where the key dogmas of Faith were formed) or North Africa (where Saint Augustine was a bishop)? The original Egyptians (Copts, who helped to develop mostasticism) are still around but as a shrinking minority.

EUrabia will have vilayets of Bavaria, Saxony or Brandenburg but they will have as much in common with Germany as future Muslim KosovA will have with the cradle of Serbian nation.

One thing to remember. Islam is not just a personal belief or a denomination - it is a way of life and a civilization with its own laws.

[Atlantic Bridge]

But it might be that German nation will cease to exist

No. It is developing into something new and better. To me it is clear that a wider world with a higher fluctuation will necessarily lead to a sort of melting pot. This is not only happening in Europe but also in the US and elsewhere. Since I am no racist I do not have any problem with it. The values of a country are more important than its races.

If you read my #26 you will understand why I am not afraid of coming under Muslim domination. As I said, as a informed European I find this discussion about "Eurabia" simply ridiculous.

Europe has indeed a problem. It has a problem with its values and its fastidious people. Some (not all) kids are not "hungry" enough anymore to make something out of their lives since the social system will take care of them - no matter what they do. This is the European illness. Therefore we have to change our system to more freedom and to less gouvernment again.

[Atlantic Bridge]

They certainly made a few babies.

Let's hope so. This is the secret of happiness. :-)

[A. Pole]

[A. Pole:] But it might be that German nation will cease to exist

[Atlantic Bridge:]No. It is developing into something new and better.

Hmm, "it is developing into something new and better", where have I read it? In Lord of the Rings? Or maybe in some book of C. S. Lewis?

[jb6]

New and Better == an EU paradise of homosexuals and euthanasia battling Islamic mini domains....with Christ no where to be found.

[Atlantic Bridge]

New and Better == an EU paradise of homosexuals and euthanasia battling Islamic mini domains....with Christ no where to be found.

It is funny to watch the primitve reaction of some people if they do not have any reasonable arguments. Such "strong words" are simply a wretched expression of powerlessness.

[Atlantic Bridge]

Hmm, "it is developing into something new and better", where have I read it? In Lord of the Rings? Or maybe in some book of C. S. Lewis?

Sorry - but I haven't read "Lord of the Rings or C.S. Lewis yet. Not my kind of literature.

[nightdriver]

"It is correct that we Europeans have a problem with young muslims on our continent since they are usually undereducated and unemployed. This is the reason why they get aggressive - just as some minorities in the US.."

I tend to disagree with that.

The reason moslems are a problem is because they are moslem. Their own scriptures implore them to be that way. (Sura 9:5 of the koran comes to mind)

They are like a keg of nitroglycerin imbedded in your society that appears to be passive and tolerable, but, given the right conditions, detonates, and shows its true colors.

History doesn't lie.

[The Iguana]

The Extremely Smart People (TM) seem not to realize that their secularized unbelief is in fact very much the exception in the long journey of the human race.

It mainly affects a certain slice of the post-modern West, which makes thema very small minority in the world today (and shrinking). When you add in the dimension of time...this phenomenon - even traced back to the Enlightenment - shrinks even more.

But at the rate they are non-reproducing themselves into nonexistence, it may be a moot point before long.

P.S. For all the supposed sterility of the "1950's" Catholic Church - I would take the overly casuistic, neo-scholastic, suburban conformity of that period to what's replaced it in the chicest locales. Encrusted faith beats nihilism any day.

[jb6]

Germany is a country with a huge immigration just like the US were.

Not quite. The US immigration was mostly of European Christian origin. Blacks who were brought over as slaves where Christianized themselves.

The majority of Germany's immigration is Turks, Kurds and Bosnian Muslims. Good luck, you'll need it.

Oh and one of the things I just "loved" was when the Turks started crap with us in German clubs, we, the American GIs got banned not the Turks.

[The Iguana]

Germany indeed does not seem to be in the quite the same danger as, say, France, the low countries, Spain or even Britain. Turks do seem more assimilable. And you do have all the ethnic Germans from the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe immigrating as well.

So the Steyniacs would be well advised not to lump all of Western Europe into one basket. The situation is worse in some places than others.

And yet...

There's no question that Western Europe is facing a real demographic crisis. The numbers speak for themselves.

Not a single country has a Total Fertility Rate at replacement level. Some, in fact, are at about half of that - Spain and Italy being the worst off. In other words in the latter countries, each generation is not much more than half the size of the one before it. There are muslim majority populations now in at least a few major Dutch and Belgian cities. Obviously such a state of affairs, if it continues, will have serious conserquences down the road.

And it is not unreasonable to argue that this demographic crisis is tied to what this article speaks of - the loss of faith across much of Western Europe.

But across the Pond we have little reason to be smug. The same trends are at work here, especially in Canada, whose demographics and religious observance are almost indistinguishable from much of Europe. American TFR hovers just under replacement level, which is better than anything in Europe but nothing to write home about. The difference, however, is that most of our immigrants are Christians (at least culturally) from Latin America, and thus far more assimilable than Muslims from the Africa or the Middle East - even Turks, I daresay. We also have a largr population, making it easier (but not without difficulty) to absorb large numbers of immigrants.

So there might be some exaggeration over here. But however you slice it, most of Western Europe faces a serious demographic and societal crisis - even if Germany is in better shape than many of its neighbors.