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The Left’s Intelligent Design Problem by Max Borders
Tech Central Station ^ | 04 Jan 2006 | Max Borders

Posted on 01/04/2006 7:33:35 AM PST by Nicholas Conradin

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To: PatrickHenry
O horrible man. How dare you deny the Intelligent Economy Designer?

But I did no such thing..... Milton Fiedman did; I merely reposted his illustration of the principle of designer-less complexity.

Speaking of Friedman, he was interviewed by Charlie Rose, and during the course of the hour long interview, CR asked MF is he had changed his mind about anything. MF thought for a moment and replied: "Why, yes! I used to think that there was some good that came from the anti-trust laws, but I have since come to the realization that they do more damage than good."

From the context of that comment during the interview, I got the impression that the anti-trust law was just about the only form of government intervention in the market that Freidman had entertained as being possibly positive, and having realized that he was mistaken, the last remaining edifice of the state interfering in the marketplace was at last swept from Friedman's view of the ideal market.

81 posted on 01/05/2006 6:23:32 PM PST by longshadow (FReeper #405, entering his ninth year of ignoring nitwits, nutcases, and recycled newbies)
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To: VadeRetro
Even then, a mostly underground and formally illegal black market--the residue of former capitalism--was the final resort for getting goods where they were needed.

I've seen published CIA reports from those days (for what they're worth) that the small private plots allowed on collective farms, where the slave workers were free to grow what they wanted and to sell the results at market prices, provided about 30% of the food grown in the USSR. And those private plots occupied about 5% of the land allocated to the collective farms. Shows what ID can do.

82 posted on 01/05/2006 6:24:05 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Virtual Ignore for trolls, lunatics, dotards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: PatrickHenry
I remember that. The moral, boys and girls, is to engineer with what works and not with what sounds cool.
83 posted on 01/05/2006 6:33:47 PM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: VadeRetro

"The economy is not intelligently designed. That is the question before us. Use your integrity, dude!"

Let's try one more time. The very freedom that is a prerequisite of a free economy is "intelligently" designed. Adam Smith was no moron! And the very guarantee of voluntary exchange and freedom from coercion is backed by the *government*. In fact, that is one of the primary legitimate functions of government.

And do you suppose that computers are needed for today's global economy? Do you think those computers evolved with no intelligent design? Use your brain, man! Oh, wait ...


84 posted on 01/05/2006 7:07:46 PM PST by RussP
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To: RussP
The very freedom that is a prerequisite of a free economy is "intelligently" designed. Adam Smith was no moron! And the very guarantee of voluntary exchange and freedom from coercion is backed by the *government*. In fact, that is one of the primary legitimate functions of government.

Funny how international trade works, then, with no world government.

85 posted on 01/05/2006 7:28:06 PM PST by Right Wing Professor (Liberals have hijacked science for long enough. Now it's our turn -- Tom Bethell)
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To: Right Wing Professor

"Funny how international trade works, then, with no world government."

You *have* heard of the WTO, I presume. No, it is not a government per se, but it certainly has the backing of the governments involved. And the currency used in international trade is obviously backed by the governments involved too. The days of bartering for animal skins with the Indians are over.


86 posted on 01/05/2006 9:04:23 PM PST by RussP
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To: Right Wing Professor

"Liberals have hijacked science for long enough. Now it's our turn -- Tom Bethell"

Just out of curiousity, were these sentences preceded by another sentence? Oh, isn't that interesting. And what was that sentence?

So, it appears that you have quoted Bethell out of context, eh? Oh, and that quote was a *draft* that did not appear on the final version of the book, did it. Oh, I see.

Are you aware, sir, that publishers, rather than authors, commonly write titles and subtitles for books?

So what you are doing is quoting Bethell out of context for the draft of a subtitle that he may not have even written himself.

Do you have any idea what that says about your integrity, Sir?


87 posted on 01/05/2006 9:22:32 PM PST by RussP
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Unregulated, troll-free placemarker.


88 posted on 01/06/2006 3:33:35 AM PST by PatrickHenry (Virtual Ignore for trolls, lunatics, dotards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: RussP
Just out of curiousity, were these sentences preceded by another sentence? Oh, isn't that interesting. And what was that sentence?

No, they weren't preceded by anything. You're wrong.

Are you aware, sir, that publishers, rather than authors, commonly write titles and subtitles for books?

No, I'm not aware of that. Did you just make it up?

89 posted on 01/06/2006 5:03:30 AM PST by Right Wing Professor (Liberals have hijacked science for long enough. Now it's our turn -- Tom Bethell)
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To: RussP
You *have* heard of the WTO, I presume.

International trade preceded the WTO by thousands of years. Nor does the WTO do anything except montion tariffs and other restrainst on trade. It doesn't enforce contracts.

And the currency used in international trade is obviously backed by the governments involved too. The days of bartering for animal skins with the Indians are over.

Your argument seems to be that if governments do anything, however minor, to facilitate markets, the markets are government controlled.

90 posted on 01/06/2006 5:07:57 AM PST by Right Wing Professor (Liberals have hijacked science for long enough. Now it's our turn -- Tom Bethell)
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To: Right Wing Professor; RussP
I'd just like to make one more point about markets and governments. When I was a teenager, my family lived for a couple of years in Tanzania. This was, at the time, a formally Marxist state with tight economic controls. As a result, there were shortages of almost anything. The result was a flourishing hard currency black market, which the government did little to persecute but nothing to encourage. So, if you wanted to buy soap, you paid dollars (which you weren't supposed to own) to a guy who smuggled the soap into the country; and if he cheated you, going to the police was not an option. So much fro government's role in a market economy.

So much for RussP's economically ignorant contention that markets require governments.

91 posted on 01/06/2006 6:45:36 AM PST by Right Wing Professor (Liberals have hijacked science for long enough. Now it's our turn -- Tom Bethell)
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To: Right Wing Professor
So much for RussP's economically ignorant contention that markets require governments.

A further example -- and perhaps the best -- is the Law Merchant (or or Lex Mercatoria for those who want a touch of class). It was a spontaneous, self-organized, and non-governmental mechanism for the conduct of markets.

92 posted on 01/06/2006 7:09:53 AM PST by PatrickHenry (Virtual Ignore for trolls, lunatics, dotards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: VadeRetro

See above.


93 posted on 01/06/2006 7:10:17 AM PST by PatrickHenry (Virtual Ignore for trolls, lunatics, dotards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: narby
The Discovery Institute, the promoter of ID, is no different than the Sierra Club or Greenpeace...

Back in the early 70s I read an article by Noam Chomsky ridiculing the idea that human language could be the product of evolution. At the time I had no knowledge of Chomsky's politics. I wrote him off as a sophisticated creationist.

It's interesting to examine the parallels between ID and socialism. On one hand you have people who deny that undirected events can produce use biological features, and on the other hand you have people who deny that an undirected economy can produce wealth.

94 posted on 01/06/2006 7:17:40 AM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: js1138
... and on the other hand you have people who deny that an undirected economy can produce wealth.

Or that planets can move without being pushed by angels.

95 posted on 01/06/2006 7:21:26 AM PST by PatrickHenry (Virtual Ignore for trolls, lunatics, dotards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: RussP
Let's try one more time.

Apparently, you can't stop trying even though the refutations of your nonsense are obvious. The existence of intelligently designed organizations and objects in the modern world economy does not mean that the modern world economy had a designer. If it did, who was said designer, God?

What is the matter with you people that you can't ever even once even in the most obvious instance say, "Whoops! Good point! I probably shouldn't have claimed what I did!?"

96 posted on 01/06/2006 8:06:51 AM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: Right Wing Professor

"Your argument seems to be that if governments do anything, however minor, to facilitate markets, the markets are government controlled."

No, that's not my point at all. That's just another example of your incorrigible missing of the point.

The point here is not that government "controls" anything. The point is that, simply by using government-backed currency, the trading involves a government-based "intelligent design" that is explicitly ruled out in purely naturalistic evolution.

But I don't expect you to get it because that would require honest, objective thinking.


97 posted on 01/06/2006 9:00:28 AM PST by RussP
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To: Right Wing Professor

"I'd just like to make one more point about markets and governments. When I was a teenager, my family lived for a couple of years in Tanzania. This was, at the time, a formally Marxist state with tight economic controls. As a result, there were shortages of almost anything. The result was a flourishing hard currency black market, which the government did little to persecute but nothing to encourage. So, if you wanted to buy soap, you paid dollars (which you weren't supposed to own) to a guy who smuggled the soap into the country; and if he cheated you, going to the police was not an option. So much fro government's role in a market economy."

They used what? Oh, dollars, eh.


98 posted on 01/06/2006 9:03:32 AM PST by RussP
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To: RussP
The point is that, simply by using government-backed currency, the trading involves a government-based "intelligent design" that is explicitly ruled out in purely naturalistic evolution.

Gold and other precious materials were used as a medium of exchange long before there were government backed currencies. In fact, early governments (e.g. the Roman Empire) frequently debased previously reliable mediums of exchange.

But I don't expect you to get it because that would require honest, objective thinking.

No, to 'get it' would require complete ignorance of the history of economics.

99 posted on 01/06/2006 9:04:39 AM PST by Right Wing Professor (Liberals have hijacked science for long enough. Now it's our turn -- Tom Bethell)
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To: RussP
They used what? Oh, dollars, eh?

So you're claiming the US Government has juridiction in Tanzania?

You don't need a government to have a medium of exchange.

100 posted on 01/06/2006 9:06:47 AM PST by Right Wing Professor (Liberals have hijacked science for long enough. Now it's our turn -- Tom Bethell)
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