Dutch Take Sober Look at Pot Laws

Philadephia Inquirer ^ | Jan. 01, 2006

[JTN]

"American rates have been falling while European rates have been rising."

Buried in the middle of the article.

Which is appropriate if it needs to be mentioned at all (it doesn't). The rates have been falling only in the last three years; before that they were rising. All this sentence means is that American use is down from a peak. This hardly makes the prohibitionist case however, since it is a peak that occurred under prohibition.

And longer term, this statement is not true. As the article states, "What it doesn't say is that marijuana use in the Netherlands has been stable since then, and it remains lower than in the United States, which has seen use rise from a low in 1992."

Your response? "Yes, JTN, a low that occurred under prohibition." Usage rates now however are pretty much the same as they were 30 years ago in spite of much higher federal spending on prohibition.

What's to be gained by legalizing marijuana?

Lower rates of property crime and violent crime.

[md2576]

I understand. I'm asking you if it isn't a better idea, as the article suggests, to give your crackhead methed-out thieves free drugs (well, free in the sense that your tax dollars pay for them) so they won't have to steal your radio and tools to feed their habit?

No. I thought this answer was clear.

Oh. Do you think family men should be doing illegal drugs? You know, kids and all.

No, but I would rather him be smoking pot in the other room instead of drunk and beating them or passing out while watching them. Drugs, alcohol or many things, even smoking cigarettes, might not be best if done in front of children but that is the parents decision. I am comparing drinking and pot smoking. Not shooting up heroin in front of them or murdering someone as many here will portray.

[JCEccles]

But it goes further: Several countries allow government-funded "consumption rooms" for drug users, to provide them with social services and dissuade them from using drugs on the street. And at least four countries - Switzerland, Germany, the Netherlands and Spain - have programs under which the government gives heroin to hard-core addicts and lets them inject themselves in a government-sponsored facility. That idea is profoundly controversial, but the Swiss, who pioneered the practice a decade ago, insist that it has dramatically reduced drug deaths and street crime by addict participants, who no longer have to steal or mug to feed their habits.

Who's picking up these costs?

Taxpayers.

Not a very good advertisement for libertarianism.

[dennisw]

Pot smoking makes you soft, stupid and full of illusions about life. Muslims love to prey on such loser societies. Pot may make you artistic but the Muzzie Jihad has no use for such crap. Pot heads will be the Eloi for the Muslim Morlocks

[Freebird Forever]

Antonio Costa, an Italian who heads the United Nations Office of Drugs and Crime in Vienna, has little patience for Europe's tolerant stance

As if we didn't already have enough reason to dispise the UN.

[robertpaulsen]

Hmmm?

Do you think those numbers would be equal if we adopted the same laws?

[robertpaulsen]

"A smaller percentage of the Dutch smoke pot than of Americans."

Yes. And ...?

A larger percentage of Japanese drink saki than of Americans. Should we conclude anything about that?

The Dutch would rather drink than smoke pot. Big deal.

[robertpaulsen]

"instead of drunk and beating them or passing out while watching them"

I'd rather he either drink responsibly or not at all. But at least alcohol is legal.

As to beating his kids, well, he can do that stone cold sober and it'd still be wrong.

[bankwalker]

Pot smoking makes you soft, stupid and full of illusions about life. Muslims love to prey on such loser societies. Pot may make you artistic but the Muzzie Jihad has no use for such crap. Pot heads will be the Eloi for the Muslim Morlocks

I think you nailed it, dennis.

[dennisw]

You can live soft and nice and stupid and tolerant for a few decades or a few generations but a predator WILL come along who doesn't see you as nice. He sees you as dinner.

The Dutch-
Enabling homosexuality, low marriage rates and many abortions don't help your people or their demographics. Islam has large families and zero abortions. Islamic family structure is well suited to waging war in that if the father dies fighting the extended family will DEFINITELY help with the children and so will Muslim charities

[bankwalker]

Your freeper homepage is outstandingly useful. I especially like the pc security links near the bottom. Thanx.

[robertpaulsen]

"What it doesn't say is that marijuana use in the Netherlands has been stable since then, and it remains lower than in the United States, which has seen use rise from a low in 1992."

Well, let's take a look at that. If you have different numbers, let's see 'em (or give me a link).

Yep. You're right. Marijuana use is higher today than in 1992.

Then again, one can look at that same chart and also state that marijuana use in the United States has been relatively flat for almost 20 years (while, during the same period, doubling in the Netherlands). I suppose it depends on how honest you want to be in presenting the statistics.

Marijuana use has been up only recently, and I submit that's due to the recent trend in decriminalization and the legalization of medical marijuana by some states.

"Usage rates now however are pretty much the same as they were 30 years ago in spite of much higher federal spending on prohibition."

You do realize that our population is growing and that every year the federal government spends more on everything. The article is comparing TOTAL federal spending with "usage rates" -- what a crock. Look at this garbage:

But the TOTAL NUMBER of marijuana users in 1992, for example, was 9.6 million and in 2002 was 14.6 million -- essentially a parallel line.

"What's to be gained by legalizing marijuana?
Lower rates of property crime and violent crime."

Is that what they found in the Netherlands? Where are you getting your facts?

We can also achieve lower rates of property crime and violent crime by giving everyone a free car, free housing, free food, and $100,000 each year. Also a good idea?

[Trailerpark Badass]

"A smaller percentage of the Dutch smoke pot than of Americans."

Yes. And ...?

I think the point is rather obvious.

[robertpaulsen]

"I think the point is rather obvious."

I'd rather you finish the point. Were you going to say that, "A smaller percentage of the Dutch smoke pot than of Americans, and it's due solely to the liberal Dutch laws on marijuana?

Go ahead. Don't be afraid. Finish the point -- you posted it.

[dennisw]

Thanks ... and the PC security links come from another freeper, he may have updated them. http://www.freerepublic.com/~holymoly/

A quick to load PDF reader another freeper told me about -->>
http://www.foxitsoftware.com/pdf/rd_intro.php

[Wolfie]

Hey, taxpayers in this country pay for old men to get erections. Doesn't say much about us, does it?

[Wolfie]

ping

[pepsionice]

Well...lets be honest...the number of murders in Amsterdam...probably corresponds to the city of Ripley, Mississippi. There just aren't murders in the town. Robberies are somewhat common...but thats a long-step away from murder or violent crime.

[JTN]

Marijuana use has been up only recently, and I submit that's due to the recent trend in decriminalization and the legalization of medical marijuana by some states.

Possibly, but it could be that increasing usage rates and decriminalization have a similar cause - changing attitudes about marijuana.

"Usage rates now however are pretty much the same as they were 30 years ago in spite of much higher federal spending on prohibition."

You do realize that our population is growing and that every year the federal government spends more on everything. The article is comparing TOTAL federal spending with "usage rates" -- what a crock. Look at this garbage:

The line in bold was actually my statement. It's not from the article. I was referring to per capita federal spending.

Lower rates of property crime and violent crime.

Is that what they found in the Netherlands? Where are you getting your facts?

From the research I have posted previously.

Homicide Rates and Substance Control Policy

Violence and the U.S. Prohibitions of Drugs and Alcohol

Alcohol Prohibition Was A Failure

We can also achieve lower rates of property crime and violent crime by giving everyone a free car, free housing, free food, and $100,000 each year. Also a good idea?

Well, I very much doubt that would work. Socialism really isn't very good for standards of living. Witness the double digit unemployment rates in some of Europe.

Besides, redistribution on that scale would be pretty criminal itself.

[robertpaulsen]

"Possibly, but it could be that increasing usage rates and decriminalization have a similar cause - changing attitudes about marijuana."

Changing attitudes? Really? Why then did marijuana proponents in the city of Denver have to resort to subterfuge to pass their most recent marijuana proposition (I-100) with their "battered women" campaign, saying "Reduce family and community violence in Denver. Vote Yes on I-100"?

"I was referring to per capita federal spending."

Per capita? So if the population doubled and drug use quadrupled, you would only tolerate a doubling of anti-drug money because the population doubled? And that makes sense to you?

"From the research I have posted previously."

Let's see. Your link #1 makes a connection between illegal drugs and homicide rates. Hmmmm. Your author never isolates any one drug and makes any claim as to a reduction in violent crime.

Your link #2 is the same.

Your link #3 says nothing about marijuana's link to property crime and/or violent crime. WTF is going on here?

Maybe you should just support your statement with an actual cite instead of pointing me to these articles, forcing me to waste my time figuring out that they're totally irrelevant. You got nothing.

"Besides, redistribution on that scale would be pretty criminal itself."

Be that as it may, I thought your driving goal was to achieve lower rates of property crime and violent crime and screw everything else.

Gee, if you willing to consider the downside of socialism (like unemployment and the immorality of wealth redistribution), then maybe you'd be willing to consider the downside of drug legalization.