Christian 'megapastor' blasts believers on Dec. 25 dispute (defends decision to close)

World Net Daily ^ | December 19, 2005

[Politicalmom]

I am a Christian, and my family will BEGIN our Christmas in church on Christmas Eve, and then our youngest reader will read the Christmas story. Getting 8 people up and out to church on Sunday is not in the cards for us.

I don't have a problem with my church being closed on Sunday. They are having at least 4 Christmas Eve services.

Sure are a lot of people whining about OTHER people's churches, aren't there? :)

[Sensei Ern]

To further the debate, would these churches be open on Christmas for a Christmas worship if it were on Monday? Ours has always had a Christmas Day service.

[red irish]

You mean like those legal ten commandments?

[red irish]

Just the person who was favored by God and told by an angel.

[aimhigh]

I think they send an awful message, but it is not a sinful decision, imo.

Liberalism moves one step at a time. Easter is next.

[P-Marlowe]

You know, the majority of those 'edifice' building churches (southern baptist for example) frequently plant house churches while in the mission field.

I have never been in an "elaborate" Southern Baptist Church edifice. Is there such a thing?

Would you prefer that we just close all the churches?

Well it might eliminate a lot of the contention on this thread if they all closed on Christmas. :-)

[SoothingDave]

Unless you want to claim various heretical churches were the forefathers of your present belief system.

It's convenient that anything outside of the Catholic church was considered heretical so by definition, all non-catholic churches were heretical.

That's not what I meant. I meant heretical according to the modern consensus of both Catholic and Protestant believers. If you want to claim gnostics and other heretical believers as your spiritual forefathers, more power to ya. But the idea that there existed a true "New Testament Church" alongside the Catholic Church in the early centuries, and that this church resembled in thought and practice a 20th Century American fundamentalism is grounded more in fervant hope or delusion than in fact or history.

SD

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Well, then I guess that gives you the moral authority to throw stones, eh?

"For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again." (St. Matthew 7.2)

I can handle it on keeping holy the Lord's Day.

[Frapster]

Nor are these people throwing the Baby out witht he bathwater. Not holding a service at a time you (and however many others) might think a service needs to be held is not evidence of denial of a Millenium of tradition. It is a local church attending to the unique needs of their people. It would seem that in your rigid defense of tradition we could say you are the one throwing the baby out with the bathwater as far as these people are concerned.

[SoothingDave]

Not holding a service at a time you (and however many others) might think a service needs to be held is not evidence of denial of a Millenium of tradition. It is a local church attending to the unique needs of their people.

Yes, by absolving them of the charge to keep holy the Lord's Day.

It would seem that in your rigid defense of tradition we could say you are the one throwing the baby out with the bathwater as far as these people are concerned.

I'll hold fast to my "rigid defense" of the tradition of keeping the Lord's Day. Guilty as charged.

SD

[JamesP81]

I have never been in an "elaborate" Southern Baptist Church edifice. Is there such a thing

Come to think of it, can't say that I have. My church's building is fairly elaborate for a protestant church I suppose (but I think this is more a function of its size as anything else. The sanctuary will seat around 900 at a time, and that's a lot for a church in a town with 400 people. It's even more when you consider that sunday attendance between both morning services usually about 1600). But whether such a thing exists or not I don't know. Still, AFAIK, most churches like southern baptist are registered as non-profits and have 'professional' clergy in the sense that that is all they do. In my church, I think the pastor is the only one that works in the church full time as such (he also farms on the side, but he's not a full time farmer). The deacons have regular full time jobs on top of their duties as deacons.

Well it might eliminate a lot of the contention on this thread if they all closed on Christmas

Well, maybe. I still think it would send the wrong message, though.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Paul was not the writer of Hebrews. No one knows exactly who it was but most scholars believe that Paul was not the author.

Every early Christian writer said St. Paul wrote it. That is good enough for me, as opposed to modernistic liberal Protestant theories casting doubt on the Holy Scriptures.

Notice that the writer said "as some are accustomed." This shows that not all Christians met at regimented times but as they were able.

No, this means that some so-called Christians had grown accustomed to avoiding the weekly Church assembly. If you had some familiarity with Canon Law, you'd know that the Christians of the Roman Empire early on (i.e. before Emperor Constantine was on the scene) laid down a rule that a person who missed Church for three straight weeks was to be excommunicated.

While Christians should gather for the purpose of mutual edification and encouragement, as we are one Body, there are not "firey consequences" for neglecting to do so.

We gather together to worship the Lord, not as a self-help group (as if we have the power to do anything anyway of our own - what a Pelagian stance you are taking).

St. Paul certainly speaks of the fiery consequences. "For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries." The willful sin of apostasy he is referring to is manifested by a failure to continue in attendance at Church.

The judgment that you refer to applies toward those who reject Christ after having first receive Him and not about gathering or not gathering with other believers. How you can tie that in to a judgment on those who choose not to meet is ridiculous.

To reject meeting with other Christians at Church is a form of apostacy and hatred of the brotherhood. It is also a rejection of the imitation of Christ and the Apostles, who were accustomed to meet the brethren at least once per week for worship.

Come on. Is this the best a Catholic can do?

"But now you rejoice in your arrogancies. All such rejoicing is wicked. To him therefore who knoweth to do good, and doth it not, to him it is sin." (St. James 4.16-17)

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Well, then I guess that gives you the moral authority to throw stones, eh?

"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge just judgment." (St. John 7.24) "Know you not that the saints shall judge this world? And if the world shall be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?" (1 Corinthians 6.2)

[JeffAtlanta]

as if we have the power to do anything anyway of our own

You don't believe that man is judged on his works?

[JeffAtlanta]

Every early Christian writer said St. Paul wrote it. That is good enough for me, as opposed to modernistic liberal Protestant theories casting doubt on the Holy Scriptures.

People say lots of things that end up not being true.

Why do you think that Paul does not claim authorship in Hebrews like he does in every other letter? Also, why do you think he changed writing styles for only this letter?

Wouldn't it make more sense that someone else wrote it?

[JamesP81]

You don't believe that man is judged on his works?

All men are judged by their works, but for those in Christ there is no condemnation. If that weren't true, everyone would go to Hell.

However, I don't believe that there is any work or amount of good works that can 'earn' you your salvation. God offers, through Christ, the gift of eternal life. If we accept that gift and choose to follow Him, and if we love him, our decision will be evidenced by good works. Good works are merely an indicator of someone who has received the free gift of salvation; not a method to earn that salvation.

[Not A Snowbird]

This seems like a good thread to post the news that Pastor Rick Warren is NOT closing Saddleback on Christmas Day. There will be a service.

Just had to get that in.

[sauropod]

Uh-huh Pastor Weece. Suuuuuuuuuuuuuurrreeeee.

[JeffAtlanta]

However, I don't believe that there is any work or amount of good works that can 'earn' you your salvation.

Oh I totally agree. I was just wonder if how the original poster felt about it as it seems to run contrary to his church's beliefs.

[P-Marlowe]

"For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again." (St. Matthew 7.2) I can handle it on keeping holy the Lord's Day.

Maybe.

Maybe not.

Col 2:16-17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.