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Mother sacrifices self for unborn baby (another saint enters heaven...)
The Washington Times ^ | 12/11/2005

Posted on 12/13/2005 7:49:21 AM PST by Rutles4Ever

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To: Burkean
By choosing to give her fourth child a chance a life, she is not dooming her other three children to a life without a family.

Sure, they will have family, but they won't have a mother. She chose NOT to mother them. All the adult perspective in the world won't help children to understand why their mother chose to leave them.

Why is the life of the unborn MORE important than the life of the mother? That is what is happening here. People aren't saying, "Both lives are important." The unborn is MORE important and overrides the mother's life PLUS the impact the mother's death would have on the rest of the family.

141 posted on 12/13/2005 5:15:32 PM PST by Dianna
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To: bourbon
You said, "I doubt that the Catholic Church sanctions abortion in just such a case. Am I wrong about that? If so, I'd appreciate correction."

It depends entirely on what you mean by "abortion." If by abortion you mean: "directly and deliberately killing the baby because you hope to accomplish good by it" --- no, killing an innocent person is always morally wrong. It's, by definition, murder.

But if you mean, "Using the usual justified therapeutic means --- whether drugs or surgery or whatever --- to save the mother's life, with whatever regrettable side-effects to the baby": that's morally innocent. There is no intention to kill.

I hope this clarifies it:

The usual abortion methods (suction curettage, saline, D&E, D&X, etc.) are NOT therapeutic to the mother. They are not a cure for cancer, or kidney disease or congestive heart conditions or diabetes; they are direct attacks on the child, and they are not permitted.

The usual anti-cancer treatments (chemo, radiation, surgery) are NOT direct attacks on the baby. They ARE legitimately therapeutic for the mother, as their direct intention AND direct effect is to attack the cancer (not the baby.) Therefore they are permitted, in extreme cases, even if the "side effect" increases the risk to the baby, even fatally.

In any case,you never directly and deliberately attack the baby. (Or the mother!!)

Does that help?

142 posted on 12/13/2005 5:18:00 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("I have come that you might have life, and have it more abundantly.")
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To: Dianna
PLUS the impact the mother's death would have on the rest of the family.

That's an excellent point. Looking back, had I thought about that aspect of my dying and leaving them motherless, only God knows what decision I would have made. Makes me second guess my decisions now.

143 posted on 12/13/2005 5:29:23 PM PST by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: Sir Gawain
St. Gianna Beretta Molla was an Italian doctor.

Here's her website:

http://www.saintgianna.org/

144 posted on 12/13/2005 5:32:18 PM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Rudy Giuliani is pro partial birth abortion...just ask Sean Hannity.)
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To: FourtySeven

Agree.

In addition, I don't expect a secular newspaper to give a complete or accurate Catholic presentation of someone's moral state.


145 posted on 12/13/2005 5:42:56 PM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Rudy Giuliani is pro partial birth abortion...just ask Sean Hannity.)
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To: KOZ.

If this is the actual info that the priest gave you, he is dead wrong. Abortion is never permitted.

If the child died as a result of treatment of the mother (say with radiation treatments), that's one thing. But to directly terminate a pregnancy, i.e., kill a unborn baby, is always murder. There is no such thing as a "theraputic" abortion.

I read a discussion of this recently, and I'm sorry, but I can't recall the link. It may have been on Free Republic.

Ectopic pregnancy (conception and attachment within the falopian tube) is another issue. The removal of the fallopian tube does not morally constitute an abortion, although the pregnancy is ended.


146 posted on 12/13/2005 5:55:33 PM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Rudy Giuliani is pro partial birth abortion...just ask Sean Hannity.)
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To: KOZ.

Anyone who calls himself an "ethicist" is not to be trusted with a dollar, and definitely not with anyone's daughter.

Back on topic, it is Judaism that says you must sacrifice the child if a choice is forced between the life of the child and the life of the mother. Makes sense for a people trying to survive - the mother could bear more children but the child would be many years from doing so.


147 posted on 12/13/2005 6:10:57 PM PST by thoughtomator (What'ya mean you formatted the cat!?)
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To: RebelBanker

I hope your brother-in-law is comforted by the fact that his late first wife was a saint and went straight to Heaven.

Thank you for posting such an inspiring story. It seems there are still heroes and heroines in this world.


148 posted on 12/13/2005 7:10:25 PM PST by B-Chan (Catholic. Monarchist. Texan. Any questions?)
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To: Rutles4Ever
"No greater love hath man (or, woman) than to lay down his (or, her) life for another."

The lady has found grace in the eyes of He who is all.

God bless and keep her, until she and her son are once again together in the life to come.

149 posted on 12/13/2005 7:15:21 PM PST by Thumper1960 ("There is no 'tolerance', there are only changing fashions in intolerance." - 'The Western Standard')
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To: Mrs. Don-o
For mothers, as for Marines, "Uncommon valor is the common virtue."

What a lovely sentiment. Mind if I use it (with atribution, of course)?

150 posted on 12/13/2005 7:17:42 PM PST by B-Chan (Catholic. Monarchist. Texan. Any questions?)
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To: Dianna

I think what people are trying to say is that it's God's decision. If a woman in this situation does nothing to treat herself, she is leaving the decision of who lives and who dies up to God. Meanwhile, she can do her best to save both lives. Surely, it is a balancing act. But the ultimate goal of a Christian in this situation should be to not interfere with God's will. Of course, this opens another theological can of worms, but I guess if God lets me have cancer while pregnant, He knows I will do what I can to protect my child. So, in essence, if God puts me in this situation, He has already chosen who lives and who dies. I am not God. It is really not a choice that I get to make.


151 posted on 12/13/2005 7:18:16 PM PST by conservatrice
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To: Mr. Lucky
Some see the glass half empty........

Few here could do what she did. Few here would have that sort of courage. It can be intimidating.

152 posted on 12/13/2005 7:23:08 PM PST by Thumper1960 ("There is no 'tolerance', there are only changing fashions in intolerance." - 'The Western Standard')
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To: B-Chan
For mothers, as for Marines, "Uncommon valor is the common virtue."

What a lovely sentiment. Mind if I use it (with atribution, of course)?

Say it loud, say it proud! Use it early and often!

153 posted on 12/13/2005 7:25:05 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("I have come that you might have life, and have it more abundantly.")
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To: Dianna

Killing in defense of human life is never a "sin".


154 posted on 12/13/2005 7:26:18 PM PST by Thumper1960 ("There is no 'tolerance', there are only changing fashions in intolerance." - 'The Western Standard')
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To: Rutles4Ever

God bless this woman and may she rest in peace.


155 posted on 12/13/2005 7:26:32 PM PST by Baraonda (Demographic is destiny. Don't hire 3rd world illegal aliens nor support businesses that hire them.)
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To: Rutles4Ever

Thank you Rutles4Ever.


156 posted on 12/13/2005 7:59:06 PM PST by fatima (I told the doctor, ``Doc, my foot hurts -- what should I do?'' ``Limp,'' he said. H. Youngman)
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To: thoughtomator

"Anyone who calls himself an "ethicist" is not to be trusted with a dollar, and definitely not with anyone's daughter."

how true.


157 posted on 12/13/2005 8:03:59 PM PST by Im4LifeandLiberty ("Two deaths are better than one murder" -Bishop Francis Kinrick)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; Aquinasfan
I think I get it: Your point is simply that we're not talking about an abortion of any kind. That makes sense. My use of the word was not in keeping with yours or the Church's usage of the term "abortion." Without realizing it at the time, I was using it more in the sense of any termination of pregnancy, intended or unintended (e.g. spontaneous abortion).

But let's say for a moment that the mother thought (as she surely must have) that the probability that the child's life could be saved by abstaining from treatment was far greater than the chance that her own life could be saved by undertaking the same treatment.

With this in mind, if she chose to undertake the treatment knowing that it would certainly result in the termination of her pregnancy and that it only offered a chance of recuperation, wouldn't that pose a moral problem of some kind? Or to phrase it another way, wouldn't the secondary effect (or permitted evil) be out of proportion to the intended (primary) effect, and thus no longer be licit?

An action that is good in itself that has two effects--an intended and otherwise not reasonably attainable good effect, and an unintended yet foreseen evil effect--is licit, provided there is a due proportion between the intended good and the permitted evil.

158 posted on 12/13/2005 8:06:12 PM PST by bourbon
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To: bourbon
You are reading something in to what I said that isn't there. She should have considered the 3 living children and factored them into the mix. She deserted the three existing children with no guarantee that the other child would even live. She is not a saint, she is a child abuser, she abused the 3 living children by depriving them of a mother. JMO of course. Have a good day.
159 posted on 12/13/2005 8:50:24 PM PST by calex59 (Seeing the light shouldn't make you blind...)
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To: Red Badger
The opposite of abortion is not life. It is what Milai Mimura did. Instead of baby's life for the mother, this was mother's life for the baby - the POLAR OPPOSITE of abortion.

This is a beautiful, heart-wrenching gem of ultimate human compassion in a wasteland of selfishness.

160 posted on 12/13/2005 8:51:14 PM PST by Lexinom
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