Posted on 12/07/2005 5:27:03 PM PST by Heyworth
No, according to some twit who has his shorts in a knot about Mormons, Joseph Smith talked to God through a hat. It made for a cool story to bash Mormons with, so folks who make a living tearing down that faith threw it in their books and tossed it up on their websites.
You don't like Mormons and this story gave you justification, so you tossed it out there to prove you're right. You didn't even bother to fact check it because it fit your paradigm.
But even if it were true, it's mockery because of the way it was presented.
It would be like saying to a Jew regarding Moses: You mean, other than being a murderer? And then when called on it backpedaling by saying: According to the Bible, Moses killed a man, how is observing that mockery.
But, of course, you already know all this. You just got caught and instead of apologizing, your pride stiffens your neck and leads you into practicing deceipt.
I don't understand how in the world your faith can decrease because of learning the scriptures.
"You just got caught and instead of apologizing, your pride stiffens your neck and leads you into practicing deceipt."
You're Mormon, I take it? You're perfectly entitled to believe anything you want, as am I. It's called Free Will.
But, let me ask you something. Joseph Smith did NOT translate the Book of Mormon, with his face covered by his hat, while someone else wrote down what he said? Is this incorrect? If so, I humbly apologize.
I believe the man has some serious issues.
It's not possible to be a former Christian.
It's not possible to be a former Christian.
I agree 100%
but there are many here and all over
that believe it is possible to become
"a former Christian. "
The thing is I have never met one that
had become "a former Christian" or could tell me just
how to become "a former Christian"
or if I did become a "former Christian" how
do I get back to being a Christian again.
bump
Well that is a mouthful. I personally don't think that a 'former Christian' would be the best source for learning how to get back to where they first thought they were.
I've been listening to some of Ray Comfort's messages recently and I believe he is correct in saying that many 'believers' are false conversions(his term). The Bible indicates repentance/brokenness for sin be present upon conversion. Many people aren't sorry for their sins at all and have 'believed' in Christ to obtain peace or something other than "forgiveness of sins" to escape judgement. Their 'faith/religion' lets them down because they pursued it with the wrong intention/motive.
He had change of Mind, Heart and most of all a change of will.
This is just a rephrasing of your original backpedal with a little more backpedaling. You now have Joseph Smith translating the Book of Mormon with a hat over his face. Before you had God talking to him from inside his hat.
Now, here's the truth.
Joseph Smith used the Urim and Thumim to translate the Book of Mormon (seer stones mentioned in the OT and Book of Revelation). In order to block out light or other distractions, he would sometimes place them in a cloth bag or in his hat. Other times he would simply work in a darkened room.
But people who don't like Mormons don't want to read about Joseph Smith using a biblical object with something to block out distractions. That's not derisive enough. It doesn't give them the superiority they need to mock the religion, so the story goes around that Joseph Smith shoved his head in a hat to talk to God. There are even artists renditions on various anti-mormon websites; drawn in the most mocking manner possible, of course.
Moses talks to a burning bush and Christians read about it in reverence. Joseph Smith looks into stones prepared by God to see the writings of God and the same people mock it. At least atheists are consistent.
"But people who don't like Mormons don't want to read about Joseph Smith using a biblical object with something to block out distractions."
If these "seer stones," which is what Joseph Smith called them (they were never termed "Urim and Thummim" until at least ten years after the fact), were considered to be Biblical, why did so many communities during that era penalize the use of such under the law, as being occult divination? And, if Joseph Smith was not communicating with God when his face was covered by his hat, then just what was he communicating with? This is an honest question, not a mockery.
I do not "hate" Mormons. Every Mormon I have ever met personally has been an unfailingly polite and decent person. The benefits of clean living are obvious for all to see, which makes it all the more surprising to me that the origins of this religious belief are dogged by accusations, that are, to be frank, of not just occult but fraud as well. I am certain that you are aware of these charges yourself, or you would not be so defensive about it. You may want to consider whether you are being deceived yourself. I know I felt deceived, when I was so impressed by the nice young fellows on bicycles, so earnest and so neatly dressed. So persuasive, too. But, I've come to the concusion that this represents serious error. If this makes you angry, well, all I can say is that I made my decisions based upon Biblical precepts. Joseph Smith is regarded within the Mormon Church as not just "a" prophet, but The Prophet. He prophesied many things that were and are untrue. Do you really believe that Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, located in Jackson County, Missouri? I don't. This is just one instance. There are many others.
In your heart, surely you know this?
You need to expand your reading outside the Tanners. But then, you won't have nice, neat reasons to dislike Mormonism.
No point in continuing the dialog further. I should have known better.
"No point in continuing the dialog further."
Perhaps not. I'll just end this with the observation that we likely agree upon far more than we disagree, in the greater scheme of things, and leave it at that.
Thanks for clarifying what your problem is, Antonello - and I agree - your problem seems to be with the institution of religion - not necessarily God - if I understood you correctly from what you have written. And, in that case - you are correct. People are fallible and sometimes do not get the message from God correcty.
But -
God is able to take care of His Word (scripture) no matter how man tries to change it or interpret it; just note how Abraham and Sarah went ahead of God and Abraham to conceive a child through Sarah's servant - Hagar - instead of wating for God to work in Sarah! But God was still bring to pass His promise to give them an heir (of the promise) in spite of their misunderstanding - and not waiting for God.
We could argue with you on theological concepts forever - but if something happens to you in your life that is bigger than any amount of money, medical advancements, or person - including yourself - what or who are you going to turn to - to fix the situation?
It is at times of great need and personal tragedy that some of the greatest writers have come to know Jesus as well as come to know themselves. And that is where we'll find Him. Scripture says that Jesus came to bind up our wounds and heal the brokenhearted! That means He is personally involved in our lives!
And - Merry Christmas to you too, Antonello! I hope you come tho know this man called Jesus intimately - the reason for this season! He is knocking at your door!
Is that there idea of a joke? Some joke.
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