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The Modern University Has Become Obsolete
RealClearPolitics ^ | November 25, 2005 | Froma Harrup

Posted on 11/25/2005 6:02:35 AM PST by billorites

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To: nightdriver
The college degree, with all its faults, provides some guarantee that the student has, indeed, learned something.

The main benefit is that a prospective employer has some indication that the job applicant can actually finish a project, or at least did so once.

41 posted on 11/25/2005 8:00:43 AM PST by RightWhale (Repeal the law of the excluded middle)
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To: billorites

High schools should go away for the same reasons.


42 posted on 11/25/2005 8:02:31 AM PST by FreedomSurge
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To: billorites
lightly supervised halfway houses for post-adolescents.

They already are that.

43 posted on 11/25/2005 8:02:39 AM PST by ladyjane
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To: TWohlford

This is because HR and corporations are dinosaurs too.

Look at how resistant the average corporation is to telecommuting, which is perfectly doable for a large number of jobs today and which would have tremendous savings for the corporation.

This will change. The force of technology will make it so eventually.


44 posted on 11/25/2005 8:03:51 AM PST by wouldntbprudent
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To: All; LS
Speaking as a business person involved in technical hires, regarding college education, we do our best to ferret out what the applicant's academic credentials imply. The same is done for whatever other successes the applicant is able to convey.

The company needs individuals who will have stick-to-itiveness in the face of adversities toward problem solving. We view an academic degree (accomplished within a reasonable length of time) as a measure of such stick-to-itiveness, as well as evidence of exposure to the salient parts of many problems we face.

If there were some measure shown to be more highly correlated to success than an academic degree in fields of interest to us, we would gladly use it.

It is often difficult in our areas of interest for applicants to convey succinctly comparable success, though I'm sure Bill Gates could do it even though he dropped out of college.

Sheepskin is reasonably tangible currency in areas such as ours. If a virtual university could construct some form of certification, such as a P.E. or G.R.E. score, it seems we could be well on the way to breaking the back of liberal indoctrination on college campi.

I've come to understand how inefficient dollars spent in government are. I used to think they were predictably some of the least economically efficient dollars spent anyhwere. But no, I think perhaps university education is perhaps worse. Not only do students typically pay exorbitant amounts for it, but benevolent grads and friends of such universities have typically over decades, given tens of millions, if not more, in fellowships, professorial chairs and so forth.

Cleaning up such indoctrination, economic inefficiencies and productivity slippage by getting rid of these rat's nest influences will redound to the good more than reducing big government in drips and drabs.

This activity needs to be a very high priority, especially the finding of traction with alternate avenues for solid certifications.

HF

45 posted on 11/25/2005 8:04:50 AM PST by holden (holden on'a'na truth, de whole truth, 'n nuttin' but de truth)
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To: Willie Green
For most students, it is their first opportunity to live away from home "on their own". (LOL! Yeah, I know... but it is a transition period to adulthood nevertheless)

Except many, many kids don't transition at all!

They continue to drive home once a month with piles of laundry for mom to do, etc.

Then when they graduate college, they move back in to their old room in their parents' home and continue their--ahem---transition to adulthood.

There are better ways to transition to adulthood then spending $40K+ a year to have your kid wake up in his dorm room to find his roommate having sex in plain view.

46 posted on 11/25/2005 8:08:46 AM PST by wouldntbprudent
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To: Leo Carpathian

As Oscar Wilde said, "Anything worth learning can't be taught."


47 posted on 11/25/2005 8:12:43 AM PST by appeal2
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To: RightWhale

This is why distance and alternative learning should be even more valued! The legitimate programs are quite rigorous. An employer should say, wow, this kid had the discipline to do college online and work!


48 posted on 11/25/2005 8:13:32 AM PST by wouldntbprudent
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To: AmericaUnited
The current college cost is an obscene disgrace. The value for the dollar is pitiful.

Yep

And the reason for that is STUDENT LOANS
49 posted on 11/25/2005 8:15:28 AM PST by uncbob
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To: wouldntbprudent
Except many, many kids don't transition at all! They continue to drive home once a month with piles of laundry for mom to do, etc.

Yeah... well every Bell Curve has its losers, I suppose....
but it would be incorrect to assume that these underachievers represent the norm.

50 posted on 11/25/2005 8:28:05 AM PST by Willie Green (Go Pat Go!!!)
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To: billorites
College is obscenly overpriced and unless your degree is from a "prestigious" school, it isn't going to stand above the crowd. No value in the job market for most degrees. Unless your chosen profession requires the credentials, it is simply not a smart choice today. Besides, anyone with the motivation to can learn nearly anything online. MIT has made much of their course material available on their web site...

http://ocw.mit.edu/index.html

All the money spent on getting the degree could be better invested into starting ones own company. The $20-$40K/yr would go a long way to funding a startup company with the right idea.

51 posted on 11/25/2005 8:37:59 AM PST by getsoutalive
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To: Willie Green

We can only hope.

But look around. There sure are a lot of 'em.


52 posted on 11/25/2005 8:59:40 AM PST by wouldntbprudent
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To: LS
I always wondered why some businessman like Rupert Murdoch did not establish a series of Universities that, if not actually promoted conservative thought, promised to remove any liberal brain washing. It would seem to have a huge advantage in attracting applicants. Most people who can afford to send their kids to college must be conservative since conservatives, on average, earn far more than liberals. I cringe at spending several hundred thousand dollars to send my son to a liberal think tank. Although I am fairly sure that my Cuban wife would beat any liberal thought out of him-I can't imagine the beating he would be in for if he came home wearing a Che' T shirt-but I digress;-)

Look at Fox News. Once a viable alternative was presented to CNN, CNN practically vanished. Why? Because most people who would watch a 24 hour Cable News network tend to be conservative.

I would be interested in your thoughts (Your book was great by the way).

53 posted on 11/25/2005 9:02:01 AM PST by MattinNJ (Allen/Pawlenty in 08-play the map.)
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To: Laserman
Funny you should ask. Yes, I teach at www.yorktownuniversity.com

It has full on-line programs.

54 posted on 11/25/2005 9:06:09 AM PST by LS
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To: Republicanprofessor

ping


55 posted on 11/25/2005 9:07:55 AM PST by billorites (freepo ergo sum)
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To: holden
I understand what you are saying, and certainly a degree is a form of "union card." Your personnel dept. however, would have no trouble hiring someone without a college degree who had, say, 5 years' worth of experience in the field in which you are hiring, would they?

George Gilder has argued that college degrees are a form of "credentialism" that insulate and protect corporations from discrimination claims---that they essentially discriminate against older (hard-working) men in favor of women and those minorities who get a degree. Also, he maintains, degrees "raise the bar" as to having to do do careful review of work histories (something that is often not permitted by modern workplace rules); and moreover that employers are afraid to give bad reviews to people they "let go" out of concerns for lawsuits. So it becomes more difficult to get "real world intelligence" on personnel.

56 posted on 11/25/2005 9:10:33 AM PST by LS
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To: MattinNJ
Thanks for the compliment on the book.

There are several "conservative" universities: Hillsdale, Garden City College, a couple of others. The problems are often of perception: parents and students want to be viewed as "valuable" to a college, and one symbol of that "value" is "how much will they give me to come here?" So any university that doesn't use federal money is going to be at a big disadvantage; and any university that is honest and says, "We are only going to give SOME support to those who financially absolutely need it" is not going to have any "incentives" to attract students, even if their costs are half what other universities are.

It's a con game of "offering" student aid with one hand, which makes the students feel desired, and then jacking up the prices so that the student aid is really meaningless on the other.

To my knowledge, NO major university has, across the board, drastically cut student aid and simultaneously cut tuitions. A few years ago, Rochester U. dramatically cut in-state tuitions. But this harms your recruiting because you have no "goodies" to promise. I don't think there is an answer, unless perhaps you begin by ending all federal support for university students. Try getting that one to fly!

57 posted on 11/25/2005 9:15:13 AM PST by LS
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To: TWohlford
Our richest, most successful people in the Western World have largely been those w/o a college degree. Some, like Dave Thomas (Wendy's) didn't even have a high school degree. While there is some correlation between smarts / ambition and a college degree, it is by no means a direct connection.

I went to a Catholic school for 12 years, then into the Marines and off to Vietnam. When I got out I went to college, but dropped out after two years. I just felt that I was wasting my time. Most of what I was being taught I had already learned. 30 years later, I am doing just fine and consider myself a success. My son went into the Marines directly after high school. When he got out, he skipped college, and went to work for a large corporation as a truck driver. 13 years later he's making $150,000 a year as a regional manager. He's also a prolific reader, and is, in my opinion, a very well educated and successful young man.

58 posted on 11/25/2005 9:24:31 AM PST by ExtremeUnction
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To: pleikumud; LS; bourbon; onyx; dixiechick2000; WKB
The indoctrination at college is quite a challenge for parents like me expected to pay for this rather expensive "gift" for all my children.

Two in college and two in private school is not for the faint hearted or poor.

And all for just the purpose of extending adolescence or resisting indoctrination from messianic lefty humanists

When I was at Ole Miss in the late 70s, tuition was about 600/semester and nice two bedroom apartments rented for 150/month

I'm ambivalent about this. I don't want my children left behind as far as this societal indulgence takes them, but sometimes it seems like fancy or even some public colleges for middle and upper middle class kids are a social rung sorta. Something for them to have and parents to tinkle glass over at holiday parties with neighbors who are engaged in the same pursuit. I'm living this precisely right now.

Unless your child wants to do something "professional" like medicine or law or teach at an advanced level then I'm really ambivalent about all this. I got mine in Poli Sci with the intention of law school...took the LSAT...did great...got letters.....but left the country more less for 16 years and never looked back...was tired of school.

Now I own self storage and car washes and other mundane investments that have Sam Hill to do with college...

And don't get me started on spending a fortune on daughter's college and even grad degrees so that by late 20s or early 30s they can rightly so get all fuzzy about mothering and drop it all to raise their children....which I support completely but you wonder was it worth 250K for them to be able to articulate English Lit or God forbid Women's Studies with their soccer mom pals....which is probably something they would never do anyhow.

I had this very conversation with a neighbor at our Halloween party. He's a doctor. She's a mommy with a Hollins degree (Hollins was not cheap even in the 70s). Anyhow....they have one at Washington and Lee, one at Clemson, and daughters at the toniest girls school here which may be more expensive than out-of-state at Clemson . I asked her "why do it"? She looked at me like I had no clue and declared it was a "gift"

I've been thinking about that. I'd rather "gift" them a nice home or a business start then just burn money especially with the rampant leftism at colleges.

It was an easier accommodated gift 30 years ago.
59 posted on 11/25/2005 9:24:39 AM PST by wardaddy
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To: ExtremeUnction
Our richest, most successful people in the Western World have largely been those w/o a college degree

Yes it is possible but that is not largely true.

Look at the resumes of most Fortune 500 heads or Forbes 400 folks or accomplished writers or scientists or researchers

Far and away most got degrees...many post graduate and more often than not from a decent school.

what you are calling "largely" are in fact a notable minority.

60 posted on 11/25/2005 9:32:59 AM PST by wardaddy
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