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Drug quandaries -
City-Journal ^ | November 21, 2oo5 | Theodore Dalrymple

Posted on 11/24/2005 2:15:00 PM PST by UnklGene

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To: A CA Guy

Why are you pinging the guy to a thread he posted himself?


41 posted on 11/25/2005 5:21:50 AM PST by JTN ("We must win the War on Drugs by 2003." - Dennis Hastert, Feb. 25 1999)
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To: muir_redwoods
I really don't see the problem here. Here we pay people not to work but keep the pot illegal. They get people who quietly grow and sell pot to whomever wants it.What do we get? Bloods and Crips killing each other and anyone else who is unlucky enough to get near these idiots- and you don't have to be that close to get a stray bullet. I'm with Ultra-non'neo' Conservative William F. Buckley. He has advocated legalization for just these reasons. Keeping the drugs illegal is more damaging that legalizing. We will AWAYS have people wanting to alter their reality. We AWAYS have! Some have speculated that the reason we started agriculture was so that we could make more BEER!!
It is better to regulate it and handle the problems such as impaired driving. No, I don't want to be killed by someone on drugs as they drive, just as I don't wish to be killed by someone drunk on legal beer or wine.
42 posted on 11/25/2005 5:38:57 AM PST by SSR1
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To: commonasdirt
Not so much as a dimes worth of food stamps or anything else.

The food stamp program and other welfare programs should go away as well.

In my perfect world, someone "down and out" should be able to go to a place where there would be work to be done, and a place to sleep and food provided. The work done should pay for the services provided.

This shouldn't be a nice place necessarily. The work shouldn't be fun (picking up garbage, whatever).

Such things used to exist, sometimes called "poor farms". The workers would be given a place to stay and food in return for work on the farm. This wasn't necessarily a nice existence, so people tended to work hard at avoiding them, but it was a way that people could exist without starving or freezing to death.

People shouldn't "like" whatever "safety net" we provide, so they have incentive to not need it. But decent people should provide such things, and I don't mind providing them (particularly if they were self sufficient on the labors of the recipients - I'm sure some labor unions and companies wouldn't like the competition, but that's just too bad)

43 posted on 11/25/2005 6:33:22 AM PST by narby (Hillary! The Wicked Witch of the Left)
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To: NorthernTraveler

Who said anyone here wants government health care?


44 posted on 11/25/2005 11:38:54 AM PST by PaxMacian
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To: commonasdirt
Look at the article. The fools thought that by PAYING their druggies the would solve their problems.

The article says nothing of the sort. It does suggest that they may be indirectly boosting the income of "druggies" by not legalizing growing ... but that is if anything an argument FOR legalization.

45 posted on 11/25/2005 12:38:56 PM PST by Know your rights (The modern enlightened liberal doesn't care what you believe as long as you don't really believe it.)
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To: NorthernTraveler
with government health care the government [...] has a right (even an obligation) to punish you for doing unhealthy things.

Really? Like staying up too late, eating unhealthy foods, and not exercising?

46 posted on 11/25/2005 12:41:32 PM PST by Know your rights (The modern enlightened liberal doesn't care what you believe as long as you don't really believe it.)
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To: Buffettfan
They act now like somebody forced it down their throats.

Really? The article's author claims they have a problem, but doesn't quote a single Dutch official as saying so.

47 posted on 11/25/2005 12:45:47 PM PST by Know your rights (The modern enlightened liberal doesn't care what you believe as long as you don't really believe it.)
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To: Fenris6
Or crack. Or cocaine.

And how have the bans on those substances been working out?

48 posted on 11/25/2005 12:48:10 PM PST by Know your rights (The modern enlightened liberal doesn't care what you believe as long as you don't really believe it.)
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To: narby
Narby wrote:

In my perfect world, someone "down and out" should be able to go to a place where there would be work to be done, and a place to sleep and food provided. The work done should pay for the services provided.

Such things used to exist, sometimes called "poor farms".
The workers would be given a place to stay and food in return for work on the farm. This wasn't necessarily a nice existence, so people tended to work hard at avoiding them, but it was a way that people could exist without starving or freezing to death.

I remember them well; - most Counties in Minnesota had them, -- they were a combination of 'old folks home' & poor farm. The younger 'inmates' had to care for the old folks. -- And inmates they were.
There were no bums living on the streets. -- Indigents had a choice, the poor farm, jail, or moving on..

49 posted on 11/25/2005 1:13:38 PM PST by don asmussen
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To: Know your rights

Maybe I am just showing my age....LOL....but I do have a problem with legalization. Maybe not so much with pot. But other drugs do seem to result in sociatal problems. Sure legalization may bring the cost down, etc, but having worked in my last job with a cliental that was 50% substance abusers I do not think the cost would ever be low enough for most of the users I have known to abandon their life on the edge lifestyle to get the money. But just let me say, i am enjoying our discourse on the subject. I think the civility is what marks the differance between FR and a great many oter places.


50 posted on 11/25/2005 2:11:46 PM PST by commonasdirt (Reading DU so you won't hafta)
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To: narby

Right on. Having worked directly with the welfare to work programs in Alaska I have seen cases that were sucessfull enough to stun you. Never thought some people could do it. On the other hand I have also seen people that would "dance on the edge", just doing enough to remain on public assistance as long as they can without getting kicked out of programs for non-compliance. Many just never thought the state would really enforce a 5 year limit. Boy are they getting a wake up call. Gotta wonder that when push comes to shove what will be the percentage that are totally unreachable despite any efforts.


51 posted on 11/25/2005 2:19:13 PM PST by commonasdirt (Reading DU so you won't hafta)
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To: UnklGene

$86,400 a year tax free. Equivalent to about $130,000 "on the books" job here in the states give or take a little.


52 posted on 11/25/2005 2:22:20 PM PST by Calamari (Pass enough laws and everyone is guilty of something.)
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To: pageonetoo
Do you own a business? I have four. I support 18 families with my businesses.

My personal experience with potheads is they are lazy paranoid liars and often steal. I will never hire a pothead, medical prescription or not. Do you? Alcohol drinkers on the other hand can sometimes hold a job.

If I've helped pay for public education I have a right to see a return on investment someday via taxes paid. Having publicly educated people smoke away their potential is harmful to the tax paying public and should stay a crime.

53 posted on 11/25/2005 3:00:09 PM PST by Reeses
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To: Reeses
My personal experience with potheads is they are lazy paranoid liars and often steal.

It wasn't the pot that caused it, imho. It was their nature. I have too many very well educated, erudite, productive friends that smoked the demon weed.

I have been in business for the last 30+ years, and have hired a couple thousand. I've fired a few, mainly drunks. My experience is different. It may be who you hang out with!

54 posted on 11/25/2005 3:33:47 PM PST by pageonetoo (You'll spot their posts soon enough!)
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To: JTN
"Thats a ridiculous study - I know firsthand that mj impairs my ability to drive."

That may be your experience, but I don't see why we should take your experience over the results of the studies done.

Right... I should ignore my direct experience and instead believe in your "studies"....

Alcohol isn't nearly as bad as it's made out to be. The .08 level we currently have is not based on sound science.

I'm a child of alcoholics. The damage done goes beyond whatever "sound scientific" studies you can quote.

55 posted on 11/25/2005 6:41:08 PM PST by Fenris6 (3 Purple Hearts in 4 months w/o missing a day of work? He's either John Rambo or a Fraud)
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To: Know your rights
And it apparently doesn't occur to Americans, that, for all their "love of freedom", they still don't give people the freedom to smoke pot

Or crack. Or cocaine.

And how have the bans on those substances been working out?

You think the results would be better if crack & cocaine were legal?

56 posted on 11/25/2005 6:45:04 PM PST by Fenris6 (3 Purple Hearts in 4 months w/o missing a day of work? He's either John Rambo or a Fraud)
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To: Fenris6
Right... I should ignore my direct experience and instead believe in your "studies"....

Why the word "studies" is in scare quotes I do not know, and you have given me no reason to favor your personal experience over research involving several people.

I'm a child of alcoholics. The damage done goes beyond whatever "sound scientific" studies you can quote.

Relevance to DUI?

You think the results would be better if crack & cocaine were legal?

I don't know about Know Your Rights, but I do. The most significant result of prohibition is not to deter consumption, but to increase violent crime.

57 posted on 11/25/2005 7:16:11 PM PST by JTN ("We must win the War on Drugs by 2003." - Dennis Hastert, Feb. 25 1999)
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To: commonasdirt
But other drugs do seem to result in sociatal problems.

The drug alcohol results in societal problems ... but criminalization results in even more problems.

Sure legalization may bring the cost down, etc, but having worked in my last job with a cliental that was 50% substance abusers I do not think the cost would ever be low enough for most of the users I have known to abandon their life on the edge lifestyle to get the money.

Some people get pleasure from living on the edge. But since the addictive drug alcohol is legal, it's apparently cheap enough for most abusers to afford it without resorting to crime; there's no reason to expect qualitatively different results from legalizing other drugs.

58 posted on 11/26/2005 3:17:22 PM PST by Know your rights (The modern enlightened liberal doesn't care what you believe as long as you don't really believe it.)
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To: Fenris6
You think the results would be better if crack & cocaine were legal?

We wouldn't be channeling inflated profits into criminal hands, or increasing incentives for users to rob ... sounds better to me.

59 posted on 11/26/2005 3:20:36 PM PST by Know your rights (The modern enlightened liberal doesn't care what you believe as long as you don't really believe it.)
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To: Know your rights; Buffettfan
The article's author claims they have a problem, but doesn't quote a single Dutch official as saying so.

From what I've seen, the debate in Holland is more about tweaking current regulations, rather than a reconsideration of the whole policy. I haven't seen evidence that a return to prohibition has much support.

The author sounds like a hack. Here's a sample of his work from 1997:

"If the war against drugs is lost, then so are the wars against theft, speeding, incest, fraud, rape, murder, arson, and illegal parking."

http://www.city-journal.org/html/7_2_a1.html

60 posted on 11/26/2005 9:34:55 PM PST by Ken H
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