FAITH UNDER FIRE Plot to burn Christians thwarted (Thank the Lord)

WorldNetDaily.com ^ | November 24, 2005 | WorldNetDaily.com

[MSCASEY]

When I received documentation from one of the Christian Identity churches I did not defend what they were doing or saying just because it said Christian. This is exactly what GK is doing.

There was a threat, a pastor was beaten. And if you and others are attempting to defend it or desire to make excuses about it then you are not much better than those that are making the threats.

Ms. Casey's Daughter

[MSCASEY]

So why are they attempting to have anti-conversion laws?

And maybe it depends what part of India you are in I have heard diffrent from a pastor that went to India. He said completly the opposite of what you have stated.

Ms. Casey's Daughter

[SauronOfMordor]

I didn't realize there were Hindu extremists. So now we not only have to worry about Muslim extremists but Hindus also? Wonder what the Christian extremists have been up to?

The caste system is what props up India's power elite. For the upper caste to have a plush life, the lower castes have to be kept in their place, doing their appointed jobs.

Those who turn Christian withdraw from the caste system. This can be threatening to the local power elite

[MSCASEY]

According to little jeremiah the caste system is barely existent anymore in India. At least that was his post to me on another thread.

Ms. Casey's Daughter

[MSCASEY]

It was put up here. The usually people that attempt to defend or make lite of this behaivor are following this thread also.

Sick people out there! I think they need our prayers also.

Ms. Casey's Daughter

[little jeremiah]

I'm interested in your assesment. It's curious to me (and somewhat disturbing) the number of anti-India and anti-Hinduism threads lately, either obviously false (confusing Pakistan with India and Muslims with Hindus), or of dubious authenticity, with no source other than emails and obscure websites.

There is certainly more harassment to the point of beheadings and torture going on in many other countries, primarily Islamic countries. Why don't they focus on that? Or on China? Why India, which is much more tolerant of real religious diversity?

A couple of weeks ago there was a newly registered poster who posted some really weird, offensive stuff, claimed it was from the Ramayana, and luckily I was able to prove him wrong. Then Gengis did some searching and found out the guy was getting his info from a Muslim site that specializes in disseminating wild claims about other religions in order to denigrate them. (The offender got banned.)

[familyop]

"When I received documentation from one of the Christian Identity churches I did not defend what they were doing or saying just because it said Christian. This is exactly what GK is doing."

Most of the larger churches of Christianity are now Christian identity groups. They urge businesses to divest from Israel (the largest of those churches, by its usual stealth and participation with the WCC), declare themselves to be the new figurative Nation of Israel (including both of our President's churches--the one of his past and the one he attends), defend terrorists (sometimes physically--the Church of the Nativity standoff, for one) and propagandize against Judaism (thus, the rising frequency of "Jews are going to hell if they don't convert" statements). It is a tendency toward what the first few hundred years of Christianity (the emperors and other "fathers" of the Roman Church, who were essentially all of Christianity then) did. I don't believe that GK is doing anything like that. Hinduism is not a replacement religion, and its followers aren't trying to conquer the world.

"There was a threat, a pastor was beaten. And if you and others are attempting to defend it or desire to make excuses about it then you are not much better than those that are making the threats."

...another false accusation and, I take it, you decline my offer to debate on the history of Christianity. To publish so many repetitions about isolated incidents in India for the purpose of generalizing about India and Hindus (or to split new US cooperation with India for security against expansionist, fascist regimes) is wrong. It is a false accusation using an Ancient Roman diversion and repetition tactic.

My argument is that Christianity needs to clean its own house and get with "us" in the war against radical, Islamist terrorism (even against terrorism in Israel) instead of pecking on Hindus. You're not going to convert many more Hindus, unless you start using the tactics of Constantine, Hadrian, Augustine and countless others like them again.

Our US Constitution is the best law model that I know of for religious freedom under a government, and there are now too opposing sides trying to disrespect our rights under it. One of those sides is trying to misrepresent it to fit their agenda of stopping public religious speech, and the other is trying to establish a national religion.

For about four years, I studied the history of Christianity, the history of Nazism, and a little of Judaism. After that, my own mother watched "The Passion..." After watching that passion play, she subseqently told me that "Jesus is G-d" and "all of the Jews are going to hell"--same thing I've heard from most Christians who've preached at me since. We didn't behave that way or say such things in the Christian church of my childhood. That was the last straw for me.

[Brian Allen]

<< Another piece of ... Hindu garbage ping! >>

Cool your jets, Brother G-K.

Telling us that a number of folks from Group A was prevented from exterminating a number of folks from Group B is not "anti-Group A."

It's not even "pro-Group B."

It's just telling us that a number of folks from Group A was prevented from exterminating a number of folks from Group B.

Now, to assist your redemption, go check out post #11, Dear G-K - and then go to your room!

[And while you are there, figure out an answer to why you think a pro-UNITED STATES-OF-AMERICA, THE GREATEST NATION THERE HAS EVER BEEN OR EVER WILL BE, site should be even used by those who patently seek only to express their hatred for America, for the West, for Judeo-Christian/Western/Human Civilization in general and for Christians in particular and to divide and disrupt US and to create dissent among US -- let alone that we should actually enjoy your doing so?]

Love and fellowship and blessings FRom Brian

BUMPping

[familyop]

I'm not sure about the specifics on those behind the columns and posts. But there are quite a few Christian-Muslim alliances out there--some only diplomatic and some too tight. ...and the SSPX, the "Christian Party," similar European groups, Sobranites, Buchananites, and the like. ...so many.

I might be prompted to dig and find out, if there's much more fuss, though.

[CarrotAndStick]

I had mentioned earlier that this "news" hasn't been reported by any of the mainstream news agencies, both from India and abroad. With supposed police action being involved, this can't have escaped unheard of. No chance. Not in India.

What's being pushed here is certainly an agenda, and that is dangerous. After all, WND has its disproportionately large share of journalistic blunders, and the source most probably an anonymous email.

Ever wonder why the persecution of Hindus don't get this much attention? Try Jammu and Kashmir. Search for "Kashmir Pandits". WND probably hasn't ever heard of them.

[CarrotAndStick]

http://www.kashmiri-pandit.org/sundry/genocide.html

WARNING: Gruesome pictures inside.

[MSCASEY]

..another false accusation and, I take it, you decline my offer to debate on the history of Christianity.

Really if you are so certain please put your money where your mouth is. I can get far more information from the pastor that I have been writing to in India for the past three years since he knows this pastor. So if this is correct would you be willing to put some money in for his medical recovery. I could find out what hospital and all if you will be willing. Ms. Casey's Daughter

[Saberwielder]

I have not heard of any national level anti-conversion laws in India. In any localized democratic system you are bound to have elected officials who try to pander to extremists. Even in the US, Christian groups have a hard time going about their work in San Francisco. We have also had a local body in Virginia which refused to invite Buddhists or some other group for a prayer ceremony while allowing Muslims. Do either group represent all Americans?

What we should be worried about is whether the government, especially at a national level discriminates against Christians. In Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, you can be jailed or executed by the government just for spreading the Gospel. By putting India on the same discussion table, it tends to trivialize the real serious threats to Christians and makes it sound like crying wolf.

[MSCASEY]

Sorry I confused you with another jeremiah that post on FR. He is the one that is Christian. I thought you were a Christian and your attitude seemed bizarre for being a Christian.

Ms. Casey's Daughter

[MSCASEY]

I have seen gruesome pictures before. What is your point that elsewhere they are also persecuting Christians? Sudan is another place, North Korea it is death, Vietnam I believe is where they have to worship their dead relatives or be persecuted if they become a Christian.

All of this does not excuse any person for making a threat to burn people alive. The more you attempt to minimize this more you seem to be approving of this type of behavior.

Ms. Casey's Daughter

[MSCASEY]

Well there are many on this site that are attempting to say that there are no extremist. There is no threat. There is no danger. Everything is pretty in the neighborhood.

If there are kind and good people in India they need to stop the extremist and not allow this type of threat or behavior against anyone.

But there seem to be a few on this site that are in the extremist category. They want everyone to ignore what is happening. Just like in Germany.

Ms. Casey's Daughter

[familyop]

"Really if you are so certain please put your money where your mouth is."

I won't wager money, and unbiased judges won't be found. But you can try to hold back new conversions to the Noachide movement or to Puritanism resulting from the debate, though, if you like. We can call it a "non-violent repeat of the English Civil War?" or "what is to come," if you want.

Where would you and your pastors like to start--the New Testament, the Essenes (aka Theraputae, Ascetics,...) Christian holidays, the Christian emperors, the Medieval, maybe, Ferdinand, Aquinas, Emmerich...?

[familyop]

Would you like to start with the hateful words of an official Saint (or any of the other saints who made similar comments)?

Thomas Aqinas' letter to Margaret of flanders
http://www.thomistica.net/margaret-of-flanders-online/

...or maybe the origins of books attributed to Paul and others?

Eusebius wrote, in his Ecclesiastical History (History of the Christian
Church),
Book II, CHAPTER XVII of
Philo's Account of the Ascetics of Egypt

"But it is highly probable that the works of the ancients, which he says they [the Essenes] had, were the Gospels and the writings of the apostles, and probably some expositions of the ancient prophets, such as are contained in the Epistle to the Hebrews, and in many others of Paul's Epistles."
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2501.htm

...or how the "church fathers" started the Blood Libel canards?

"Jerome: . . . This imprecation rests at the present day upon the Jews, the Lord's blood is not removed from them" (St Thomas Aquinas : Catena Aurea, Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 27.)
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/catena1.ii.xxvii.html

"Raban.: But as the guilt of His blood, which they imprecated upon themselves and their children, presses them down with a heavy weight of sin, so the purchase of the lie, by which they deny the truth of the Resurrection, charges this guilt upon them for ever; as it follows, 'And this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day'" (St Thomas Aquinas : Catena Aurea, Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 28.)
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/catena1.ii.xxviii.html

...or how those who actually cannonized the New Testament treated Jews? Or would you like to follow the history all the way up to the resulting Concordat between Rome and Germany? That would take months, but I'm willing.

[little jeremiah]

Interesting comments.

****So devoted were the American founders to this understanding of religious liberty that, as Thomas Jefferson wrote in his Autobiography (1821), the authors of the Virginia Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom refrained from mentioning the exact name of the "holy author of our religion." Here is Jefferson’s explanation for the omission:

"Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the words "Jesus Christ," so that it should read, "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion"; the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination. "

Thomas Jefferson, regarding the Virgina Constituion and religious freedom.

[little jeremiah]

Just clicked the first link, the letter of Thomas Aquinas to the Queen of Flanders.

Skin crawling.