Posted on 11/10/2005 2:22:43 PM PST by zyaakov
"No, you are advocating more punishment than he got."
I favor executing spies, period.
"Furthermore, you've shown a pronounced tendency to ignore or disdain anything exculpatory."
Because I haven't seen one thing that is even remotely exculpatory in this case, except from Pollard and his amen corner.
"So how DID those guys screw up the economic output estimate of the Soviet Union for thirtyfive years?"
They didn't realize that the "inside data" that was presented to the Politburo (and that showed things to be significantly worse than official Soviet statistics claimed) were still wildly overinflated.
From what I've seen here, what you favor is lynching.
Because I haven't seen one thing that is even remotely exculpatory in this case, except from Pollard and his amen corner.
Where the hell do you expect to see it come from, the prosecution?
Besides which, I've seen no reason to believe anything exculpatory immediately places the bearer *in* the "amen corner" as far as you're concerned. You offer a false choice as proof of your equanimity.
As for the Soviets...jeez, did anybody know what was going on over there?
"A number of key CIA agents in the East Bloc were allegedly executed as a result of Pollard's spying."
If they were friends of Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson, I say they deserved it. We have quite a few CIA traitors as far as I am concerned.
"From what I've seen here, what you favor is lynching."
How come you don't raise any hue and cry about John Walker, Jerry Whitworth, Aldrich Ames and Wen Ho Lee...?
"Where the hell do you expect to see it come from, the prosecution?"
OK, so I am to take the word of a man who lied repeatedly about what he was doing, and refused to cooperate with the government after agreeing to do so, on pain of being accused of anti-Semitism and favoring lynching. Got it.
But please don't call yourself a loyal American any longer. It's obvious that you place the national security of Israel ahead of the national security of America.
""A number of key CIA agents in the East Bloc were allegedly executed as a result of Pollard's spying."
"If they were friends of Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson, I say they deserved it. We have quite a few CIA traitors as far as I am concerned."
OK, so people spying on behalf of the United States during the Cold War deserved to be executed. Got it.
You are a worthless piece of s***, you know that?
Pollard spied for Israel. Israel IS our ally. - bvw
Well yeah, but you said the same thing about the Rosenbergs:
"since Julius and company were spies for an ALLY, their act was not Treason, as Treason is clearly defined in the Constitution. Their execution was an overreach of federal authority." - bvw
Good Lord. I had no idea he actually thinks that way.
bvw, are you loyal to your co-religionists at all costs, no matter how perverse and evil the system they choose to spy on behalf of?
"You are a worthless piece of s***, you know that?"
Since you are so void of a sense of humor, I'll let that pass.
There are quite a few Liberal ideologs in high positions
within the CIA. Porter Goss is doing his best to get rid of them. www.sourcewatch.org is a site that was formed by former liberal spooks.
Make that http://www.sourcewatch.org/wiki.phtml?title=Veteran_Intelligence_Professionals_for_Sanity
tells about an organization of former spooks
"There are quite a few Liberal ideologs in high positions
within the CIA."
And so, therefore, the Russian and Polish citizens who risked their lives--and lost them to traitors like Ames and Hanssen--to bring about victory in the Cold War all deserved to be shot, because you don't like some CIA officers here in the States.
You've got to be kidding me. Why haven't you mentioned the starving children of India? Are you *trying* to avoid a rational discussion?
And if you weren't so busy trying to find witches to burn, you'd have noticed I haven't raised a hue and cry over anything, including Pollard. It is only your browbeating that has caused me to leave my original purpose of gathering information as it relates to this case.
Don't believe me? Read my previous posts.
Your problem is you can't tell the difference between a question and a cross-examination.
OK, so I am to take the word of a man who lied repeatedly about what he was doing, and refused to cooperate with the government after agreeing to do so, on pain of being accused of anti-Semitism and favoring lynching. Got it.
You're dodging the question. Where is it suppose to come from? If you can't answer, the only possibility is the one I'm asserting: you won't accept any mitigation *because* it's mitigation.
Mighty convenient how you can strip a man of equal protection, because he complained about unequal protection. Did you put your dog to sleep for trying to bite you every time you kick it? And imagine the nerve of some people thinking you're not be an animal-lover!
But please don't call yourself a loyal American any longer. It's obvious that you place the national security of Israel ahead of the national security of America.
Save your speeches. America is an idea, not an address. No one who gets belligerent over keeping a watchful eye on government knows what being American, let alone conservative, means.
You just can't stand the fact I want to know *if* and *why* this guy is being subjected to inordinate treatment. Why is that?
BTW, you're not expected to take his word, but that's not the problem. You're trying to prevent investigation of anything else, because it might help him.
"And so, therefore, the Russian and Polish citizens who risked their lives--and lost them to traitors like Ames and Hanssen--to bring about victory in the Cold War all deserved to be shot, because you don't like some CIA officers here in the States."
I'll save that and use it as an example for those that want to know what a "strawman" argument is.
We should let all rapists out of jail too, since Clinton is walking around free. Maybe deport them to Israel eh?
Of course in those post-FDR packed court days people on both sides had learned not to give a damn sh*t about the Constitution. Like Tailgunner Joe, your namesake, and FDR both.
Joe was right -- our government was infested by Commies. Joe was wrong -- and wrongest, about how he went about the counterattack. We live with the legacy of his counterattack today, or at least today are finally unwinding its damage. The MSM pro-Commie bias is a big part of Joe's Legacy, that one horrible USSC decision that gave college professors with tenure super-speech rights is most assuredly slegdehammer to a fly Joe's legacy.
He was the termite man who reccommended aluminim siding.
"So the Rosenbergs spied for an ally, and thus by the Constitution's plain words were NOT subject to the death penalty, their crime was not treason."
The Constitution does not rule out the death penalty for espionage. But it's worth noting that, for the entirety of its existence, the Soviet Union viewed itself as being in a state of war with the non-Communist world. So, therefore, the Rosenbergs were, by dint of serving the Soviet Union, making war on the United States and giving aid and comfort to their enemies.
But it's amazing how you seek to excuse the Rosenbergs and the Pollards--whose only commonality was espionage and Judaism.
Perhaps you need to leave this country and go elsewhere.
"But it's amazing how you seek to excuse the Rosenbergs and the Pollards--whose only commonality was espionage and Judaism. Perhaps you need to leave this country and go elsewhere."A whole lot of Jews get upset to think of that statement and statements like it. The old dread "Dual loyalty!" accusation.
Some of them overreact and are go yapping and yelling amoungst the loudest "Pollard should be hung!!!!"
They just feed that evil sentiment that your fingers tapped out on the keyboard. And evil it is! You'd best throw such thoughts off if you want to stay amoung the good and the sane.
Every Jew is loyal to G-d first. There is NEVER a dual loyalty to be both a Jew who loves Israel and a Jew who is a full citizen of any other country.
I'm not arguing here for Pollard or Julius and Ethyl or such spies. I'm sticking a wooden stake through the heart of that evil sentiment that has latched onto your fingers. I'd slay the evil that speaks through those fingers if I could!
Anyone, Jew or non-jew can argue for the wrongful verdict that the execution of the Rosenbergs was and I do. Keep yourself to countering that argument and stay on the side of good. Venture off into a black pit, and a person can end up expressing the argument of those who hate G-d himself -- and that's the evil that happened across your fingers.
And that's why, imho, no Jew should ever react to that evil in such a way to support it in any way. Because it supports those who hate G-d.
"A whole lot of Jews get upset to think of that statement and statements like it. The old dread "Dual loyalty!" accusation."
I've been accused of being a "Jew-lover" in FReepmail because I stood up for those patriots at the Air Force Academy who happen to be Jewish.
For 99.9999% of those of the Jewish faith, the dual loyalty charge is BS.
You seem to be in the 0.0001% where it isn't. Your first loyalty seems to be to your co-religionists, no matter what.
"Every Jew is loyal to G-d first. There is NEVER a dual loyalty to be both a Jew who loves Israel and a Jew who is a full citizen of any other country."
But the Rosenbergs were loyal to the Soviet Union, not to Israel.
"I'm not arguing here for Pollard or Julius and Ethyl or such spies."
That's EXACTLY what you're doing. You're defending the actions of your co-religionists at any cost.
"Anyone, Jew or non-jew can argue for the wrongful verdict that the execution of the Rosenbergs was and I do."
They committed espionage on behalf of a nation (the Soviet Union) that viewed itself as being at war with the United States--and that espionage involved the ONE military advantage that the United States had over the Soviet Union. They made war on the United States.
Their deeds created the Cold War. Their deeds sent me to Vietnam for a year. Their deeds sent a bunch of my friends to Vietnam, and those friends came back home in caskets.
But you defend them, and thus defend their deeds. You say that executing them was wrong--which says that their deeds were righteous.
You are a despicable traitor, and you piously invoke God's name to defend your treason. Isn't there a commandment about not taking God's name in vain?
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