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Is US becoming hostile to science?
Reuters ^ | 10/28/5 | Alan Elsner

Posted on 10/28/2005 3:29:36 PM PDT by Crackingham

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To: Right Wing Professor

***I do, five days a week.***

And on the seventh day you rested.


***Science is neither atheistic nor theistic.***

It becomes atheistic when scientist feel the need to use it as a platform to address theological or moral issues - which they often do.


***And some competition anyway. Talking snakes, fertile virgins, ***

Well, you've got your talking apes!


And look what kind of immaculate conception "science" can deliver...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1511312/posts


101 posted on 10/28/2005 6:24:39 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: caveat emptor
Not sure who needs a knowledge of evolution other than those who are going to teach it (at the college level). I've seen it claimed that it's central to an understanding of contemporary biology, though not closely argued. If biology majors need it then give it to them when they have enough statistics to understand it.

who needs a knowledge of evolution

Medicine (evolutionary biology). Anthropology (particularly physical/medical/biological and human biology/human races). Geology/sedimentology. Paleontology. Historiography/world history. There are probably a few dozen other I have missed (it's late and I haven't shaved).

The bottom line is, if you are going to study science you can't have religious belief knocking out the parts they don't like. There wouldn't be much left.

Statistics????? Where did you dig that one up? Never once in all that stat I took did I hear anything about biology/evolution or anything remotely close. Some of the examples may have used biological data, but that's about it. Of course, I might have been napping when it occurred...

102 posted on 10/28/2005 6:27:06 PM PDT by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: PetroniusMaximus
And on the seventh day you rested.

And on the sixth I watch college football.

It becomes atheistic when scientist feel the need to use it as a platform to address theological or moral issues - which they often do.

That's a mistake. Personally, I live and let live when it comes to religion. Problem is, they so rarely 'let live'.

And look what kind of immaculate conception "science" can deliver.

C'mon, turkey basters are hardly science.

103 posted on 10/28/2005 6:27:21 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: SeeSalt
The evolutionism as well as intelligent design are theories in the field of science.

ID is as much a theory as pyramid power and zero point energy machines, except it is even less subject to falsification. Basically, it's thus far an intellectually bankrupt, scientifically worthless, often outright mendacious collection of nonsense being used by the deceitful to gull the ignorant.

104 posted on 10/28/2005 6:31:53 PM PDT by RogueIsland
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To: RogueIsland
ID is as much a theory as pyramid power and zero point energy machines, except it is even less subject to falsification. Basically, it's thus far an intellectually bankrupt, scientifically worthless, often outright mendacious collection of nonsense being used by the deceitful to gull the ignorant.

WOW! You sure have a way with words.

But tell us, what do you really think? (And is that too long for a tagline?)

105 posted on 10/28/2005 6:34:04 PM PDT by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: RogueIsland

Well said.


106 posted on 10/28/2005 6:35:14 PM PDT by indcons (Be nice to the pro-Miers crowd today.)
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To: Right Wing Professor
***And on the sixth I watch college football.***

I figured.

***C'mon, turkey basters are hardly science.***

Actually, it's an interesting illumination to this thread.

"Science" is allowing mankind to do thing which come in contact with Christian morality (artificially inseminate, freeze and/or destroy fertilized eggs, genetic-based abortion etc. etc. etc.)

If Christian's oppose these types of things are we guilty of "[being] hostile to science?"
107 posted on 10/28/2005 6:37:22 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus
"Science" is allowing mankind to do thing which come in contact with Christian morality (artificially inseminate, freeze and/or destroy fertilized eggs, genetic-based abortion etc. etc. etc.) If Christian's oppose these types of things are we guilty of "[being] hostile to science?"

No. These aren't science. They're technological applications. Anyone who claims that's anti-science might as well say that being opposed to using nerve gas on innocent civilans is anti-science.

108 posted on 10/28/2005 6:41:53 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: The_Reader_David
All you hyperventilating about the technical usage of "random" is beside the point. It makes not a bit of difference to evolution theory whether variation is random, stochastic, pseudo-random, or partially influenced by environmental factors. It is selection that ultimately shapes populations, and selection is complex and unpredictable.

If you want to maximize the stability of a system that must adapt to unpredictable selection criteria, random would be the best overall source of variation. A biased source of variation would be likely to run into dead ends. This does happen, and extinction is the result, but the system as a whole avoids fatal feedback loops.
109 posted on 10/28/2005 6:45:34 PM PDT by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: Coyoteman

Good one. How many people did he kill?


110 posted on 10/28/2005 6:51:17 PM PDT by hedgetrimmer
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To: SeeSalt
Can anybody tell us one name of communist famous man of science or a Nobel laureate?

N. N. Semjonow (Chemistry, 1956)
T. D. Lee, Ch. N. Yang (Physics, 1957)
I.M. Frank, I.E. Tamm, P. A. Cherenkov (Physics, 1958)
J. Heyrovsky (Chemistry, 1959)
L. D. Landau (Physics, 1962)
N. Basov, A. Prokhorov (Physics, 1964)
P. L. Kapitsa (Physics, 1978)

111 posted on 10/28/2005 6:57:41 PM PDT by SedVictaCatoni (<><)
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To: Right Wing Professor

You, in turn, talk your way out of the fact the EPR experiment comes out the way it does.

There is certainly no science in the Popperian sense absent observers observing systems, so you are still left with explaining the nondeterminic behaviors observed in quantum mechanical measurement. Unless, of course, you have a non-Popperian view of science, in which case, I wonder on what basis you so hotly insist on science as a superior form of knowlege to religious experience.


112 posted on 10/28/2005 6:58:03 PM PDT by The_Reader_David
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To: The_Reader_David
You, in turn, talk your way out of the fact the EPR experiment comes out the way it does.

Not at all.

There is certainly no science in the Popperian sense absent observers observing systems, so you are still left with explaining the nondeterminic behaviors observed in quantum mechanical measurement.

A consequence of assuming the observer is an eigenstate of the universe, which we most certainly are not, else we couldn't observe anything. I don't think Popper knew a whole lot of quantum, but surely he wouldn't have expected us to be a constant of the motion. :-)

113 posted on 10/28/2005 7:10:30 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: Right Wing Professor
***No. These aren't science. They're technological applications.***

To separate science from it's practical applications is artificial.

The physicist who worked on the atomic bomb saw the inseparability when they wrestled over the ethical and moral implications of their work.
114 posted on 10/28/2005 7:29:37 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: BlueYonder

"I misinterpreted your prior statement."

And I apologize that I let that bother me.


115 posted on 10/28/2005 7:43:28 PM PDT by gondramB
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To: r9etb

""Science" doesn't "prefer" to do anything. It's a descriptive word, not a person. Perhaps much of the alleged problem has to do with attempts to anthropomorphize an entire discipline into some sort of political interest group -- which in many cases it is."

You're right that should have read "scientists"

"If there's a "hostility" toward science, I suspect it's not really toward "science" per se, but rather a class of scientists who rub people the wrong way by relegating non-scientists to the lower echelons of humanity."

We need to get back to that state - there will always be that type of scientist and non-scientists probably should be wary of them.

But right now, I think we have a broader problem.


116 posted on 10/28/2005 7:48:25 PM PDT by gondramB
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To: syriacus

" Thanks for discussing this with me and helping me take baby steps in thinking through this idea."

That's why I love this place - smart people to talk to.


117 posted on 10/28/2005 7:49:30 PM PDT by gondramB
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To: Archon of the East

"I know but this in reality is a very small issue and the implication by academia is that intelligent design somehow stifles "science". Now I say if social science is taught as "science" then certainly we can teach intelligent design."

In fairness to scientists, historians and economists also don;t like it when they are told to teach things they think are not indicated by evidence.


118 posted on 10/28/2005 7:51:24 PM PDT by gondramB
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To: Crackingham

Yes.


119 posted on 10/28/2005 8:01:45 PM PDT by ml1954
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To: Right Wing Professor

"Not my problem. Physical laws are stare decissis"


That means defined and decided.
Maybe they are defined and decided by God but man is still working on them. We don't have general agreement on how many dimensions it takes to define the universe much less a theory to explain them.

"Current physics says the continued operation of the earth is deterministic and runs according to laws we've already determined. If you want some exterior intervention, you need to say why certain of those laws were modified or ceased to operate."

1. It is not deterministic because that would not account for chaos effects.

2. My statement is simply that science cannot exclude the existence of of a higher power guiding things. You seem to think I said I can prove there is a higher power and that is not at all what I said

A larger point is that by making statements that are false that the universe is deterministic and that God is excluded then you are, rather ironically, making the same mistake of giving up that ID people are prone to make and also playing into their hands strategically - just like them you seek to cast this as science versus religion when there is no conflict for reasonable, logical men.


120 posted on 10/28/2005 8:04:12 PM PDT by gondramB
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