Posted on 10/19/2005 11:23:30 PM PDT by nickcarraway
Thanks for setting the record straight.
He definitely was NOT an evolutinist!
In the thought experiment, as the live albatross decides to fly away, he musters molecular machinery in his body to accomplish that end by successful communication, i.e. the reduction of uncertainty (Shannon entropy) in the molecular machinery in going from a before state to an after state – which also results in the dissipation of heat into the local environment.
The dead albatross and the cannonball cannot successfully communicate. You'll have to take my word for that because I have no intention of tossing dead albatrosses and cannonballs until they, or I, reach maximum entropy with the environment.
The observations I gave you are obviously thought experiments, I haven't actually been to the leaning tower of Pisa. But Einstein’s relativity is also based on thought experiments as were many before him going way back to the ancient Greeks. Thought experiments lead to the next step of the investigation.
Again, it is not rocket science.
For the Lurkers here, anyone who has had a housecat or a teenager or a spouse - voted in an election or sat on a jury - knows what free will is and knows he does not need to scale the Leaning Tower of Pisa and throw a live albatross, a dead albatross and a 12 lb cannonball over the side to prove it.
You call the cell intelligence and flatworm intelligence “highly determined”. I certainly don’t agree. The cell is given a choice of which way to go and he chooses. The flatworm which regenerated from the half that didn’t have a brain is presented with a light stimulus and he chooses to scrunch up just like the one which regenerated from the half which did have a brain.
I reckon we can argue over what is the proper threshold definition for intelligence, if you’d like. I’d say intelligence would have to be more than awareness (consciousness); intelligence would require decision making and action based on that decision.
Give the flatworm a choice, scrunch or be zapped. Give the teenager a choice of a new car or a promiscuous date for his sixteenth birthday. Give the live albatross a choice to fly away or go *splat*. Give the dog a choice of Alpo or Kibbles n Bits. Give the wife a choice of wall color for the nursery.
By observation we can see that choices get made - some choices are more predictable than others but they are choices nonetheless.
So very true, AG.
The live albatross just might fly.
After a thorough behaviorist undergrad education, I had to come to grips with determinism.
I decided that those types of altruistic behavior to the detriment of the organism demonstrate that all is not stim/response (SR) determinism.
Based on evidence CONTRARY to the 5 sense, the human ON FAITH sacrifices for the benefit of the other and not him/herself.
Some will say, "...but they did what they wanted..."
No, because they went contrary to what they preferred and what their 5 senses dictated.
They transcended SR determinism.
"Greater love has no man than this; that a man lay down his life for his friends...."
The SR model helps us to make better predictions - but it is not absolute. In the end, qualia (pain/pleasure, likes/dislikes) is a very personal matter and is not constant - today your dog might do his trick for a reward of Bacon Strips, but his tastes may change at any time [even during a dog show] and it might now require a Pupparoni to get him to run the course. Lion tamers have weapons for a reason.
Love is qualia also since it can only be experienced and cannot be fully described. Love means different things to different people and at different times. The expression of a man laying down his life for his friends speaks to the greatest love.
BTW, I saw a film once of a most amazing case of altruistic behavior in the wild. A mother moose was standing with her calf when an Alaskan Brown appeared in the distance. She nudged the calf down to the ground and ran straight to the bear. She made a choice to be eaten contrary to her self-interest - and acted on it. I haven’t seen this kind of behavior outside of herds. And in the herds, such as the Black African Buffalo, it is the male who goes back to confront the predator in a battle to the death (which he often wins) - not to offer himself as an alternative dinner.
And getting back to humans (v animals) I find it particularly interesting that most all animals are born with both the ability and the instinct to find their mother's milk - but a human baby must be literally brought to the stimulus. It is as if human mothers are forced to the decision and action with a deck stacked against the newborn – as the mother’s pain is so intense during childbirth she’s apt to want to die or kill the man who did it to her. The only advantage the newborn has is that the human mother forgets that pain almost instantly.
Even so, some humans and animals are known to abandon their young. They love less it would appear.
Great stories about the mother moose and the black buffalo. There is definitely an awareness that is part of what drives them to do what they do.
Then there are the stories of incredible loyalty shown by some pets to their humans.
And some humans to the families, neighborhoods, nations.
Determinism is not the final word.
And conversely, sometimes of humans to their pets.
Truly, just as you say xzins, "determinism is not the final word." It appears that free will (the ability to make choices, or decisions) is not bound by the predictions of the physico-chemical laws.
I'm just looking in briefly here, and must go away again. Am working on a big project this weekend. But I had to write to thank you for your excellent posts, xzins.
BB, thank you for your kindness.
And best wishes on your project.
I just returned from the mall where I saw a BB Calendar with weekly BB poses. She sure was a hottie, wasn't she!?
You certainly are missed around here, my dear sister in Christ. I pray for you God's grace and Light in whatever you are doing.
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