ABC Investigation: Gaping Lapses in Security at Nuclear Reactors (NO SECURITY AT REACTORS!)

ABC ^ | Brian Ross

[WildTurkey]

Regarding the Purdue reactor, PUR1, it is a 10 kW test reactor, using a sub critical mass, meaning it can't "melt down" under any conditions.

.....

Regarding PUR-1, that information was current as of roughly 1986. They may have upgraded the core since then.

Uh, the PUR-1 (1kw) first went critical in 1962.

[jeffers]

WildTurkey posted:

"Uh, the PUR-1 (1kw) first went critical in 1962"





I choose not to address the power issue, I'm giving you the point. Earlier I thought you had information that supported higher power levels, not lower ones. If you can read between the lines here, well and good, if not, I'll take the hit.

The choice of the word "sub-critical" was a poor one, and I apologize for using it. I do not believe there is enough core material there to support a super-critical cascade, such as a meltdown or a powerful explosion. This is not what the term "sub-critical" means and using it that way was inaccurate.

I'm not sure why you boldfaced the date the reactor first went critical. If that date has relevence, demonstrate why so I can respond to it.

[WildTurkey]

The choice of the word "sub-critical" was a poor one, and I apologize for using it. I do not believe there is enough core material there to support a super-critical cascade, such as a meltdown or a powerful explosion. This is not what the term "sub-critical" means and using it that way was inaccurate.

I am sure that the PUR-1 undergoes a super-critical "cascade" just about every day.

I'm not sure why you boldfaced the date the reactor first went critical. If that date has relevence, demonstrate why so I can respond to it.

I boldface 1962 since it was the first date of criticality for the PUR-1. Your last post prior said it may have been upgraded after 1986 as your information (a sub-critical facility) was current to that date.

[jeffers]

"I am sure that the PUR-1 undergoes a super-critical "cascade" just about every day."

Ok semantics you insist on, semantics you will receive. The reactor is in a shutdown state, all control rods fully inserted, more often than in any operational state.

That's it for you.

Shoo, be ignored, or play alone. I have better things to do than argue the meaning of "is" with a grad student.

Ciao.

[pageonetoo]

When I was a student there, I took a tour of the Wisconsin reactor.

That is one of the big differences between private industry, and the learned set.

I took a scout troop to visit the DuPont Nuclear Fuels plant, near Wilmington, NC, in the 70's. Though we were sponsored by management, we all had to pass through guarded gates, locked doors, and more locked doors. Nobody got to stray from the appointed paths.

It was cool...

[WildTurkey]

That's it for you. Shoo, be ignored, or play alone. I have better things to do than argue the meaning of "is" with a grad student.

You said it was a sub-critical facility. I showed you that it went critical in 1962. That is not exactly arguing the meaning of "is". You said it didn't undergo super-critical 'cascades' and I said it did most everyday. That is not arguing the meaning of "is".

BTW, I am not a grad student and you know it as I posted a short resume just a couple of posts ago.

[WildTurkey]

That is one of the big differences between private industry, and the learned set.

The NRC regulates the private and the 'learned set'. The Director of the NRC is one of the 'learned set'. I suspect you really know nothing about the topic except what you have read on this thead.

[WildTurkey]

Shoo, be ignored, or play alone. I have better things to do than argue the meaning of "is" with a grad student.

I think that is your feeble attempt at trying to portray me without any real-world skills. But you are lying since I just recently posted to you that I had almost 30 years experience in the commercial nuclear power industry. BTW, I also have a few years on a nuclear submarine and the USS Enterprise. And I slept at a Holiday Inn (more than once).

[WildTurkey]

You playing semantics with me? Assembled means without intervening moderator,

Wrong>

and critical mass means naked sphere critical mass,

Wrong>

and if you do so, it will initiate a cascade.

"cascade"? Where did you pick up that term? Are you playing sematics with me?

[pageonetoo]

Geez. I better go throw away my BS in NE and two+ years of graduate studies in nuclear engineering, my senior reactor operators license and almost 30 years designing and testing nuclear reactors and power plants. Thanks for setting me straight.

I suspect you really know nothing about the topic except what you have read on this thead.

I thought the thread was about security, not reactor lore. I posted on an experience. Excuuuuuuuuuse me.

My only other link to nukes, is from being responsible for quality control, as an employee of S&G concrete, Wilmington, NC, in the production of most of the mud, making up the structures at Southport. I know a little about cooling tower designs, and concrete canals, too. Did you design it? I may have met you.

NRC responsibility is the same all over, but security is treated differently, by academia. Look at Livermore, and such...

(Note of interest- Dock towers in background are at the US Military Ocean Terminal, where most ammo hits the seas... at Cape Fear!)

[MindBender26]

Exactly, When we went to our "pre-Chernobyl" briefing at Indian Point, we were taken into control and turbine areas. We had to pass through metal detectors, a sniffer and a hand check of everything we had.

Once inside, we EACH were assigned an escort who had to be physically watching us at all times and never more than 10 feet away. When one our producers had to tinkle, her escort went into the loo with her.

At colleges, all it seems to take is a pretty girl and a smile.

[jeffers]

"I think that is your feeble attempt at trying to portray me without any real-world skills."

The statement is imprecisely incorrect.

My point was that your argument(s) as yet have yet to address the core issue of my statements, which is that PUR-1 is highly unlikely to melt or explode in its 1986, or almost certainly, in its current configuration.

If you have information to the contrary, please forego the runaround and get to it.

I don't have time to quibble over details so you can play expert, whether you are one or not.

If this isn't clear to you, get someone else to explain it. I've wasted more time than I should have on details devoid of substance already.

[TaxRelief]

What IS the problem with the process and/or management that is causing these gross lapses in security?

[WildTurkey]

My point was that your argument(s) as yet have yet to address the core issue of my statements, which is that PUR-1 is highly unlikely to melt or explode in its 1986, or almost certainly, in its current configuration.

I was addressing you underlying facts, not your conclusion. Sort of like if someone says the sun sets everyday because it revolves around the earth ...

[WildTurkey]

What IS the problem with the process and/or management that is causing these gross lapses in security?

Please identify what you consider a gross lapse in security and I will address it.

[WildTurkey]

I don't have time to quibble over details facts so you can play expert, whether you are one or not.

[TaxRelief]

From the article:

At Florida, Wisconsin, Purdue and Ohio State, Carnegie Fellows were able to gain access to high-security areas with no background checks, carrying large tote bags that were not inspected before they entered the reactor area. School officials said they doubted their reactors posed any risk to the nearby community due to their small size and low amount of radioactive material.

At University of Florida, Carnegie Fellows showed up unannounced and were taken through three locked doors and given a full tour of the reactor and the control room by the reactor director. Their bags, which were not searched, were left in an office connected to the reactor room.

"He became our key. And we were able to get into all these rooms through him," said Tamika Thompson, a Carnegie Fellow who recently received her master's degree in journalism from the USC Annenberg School for Communication. "If we were terrorists, we wouldn't need to have him let down his guard, he would be doing the same thing at the end of a gun barrel."

Surprisingly Easy Access

Nuclear safety advocates consider the surprisingly easy access to control rooms and reactor pools a concern.

"A terrorist with a little bit of explosives in a backpack like your students, would be able to release a vast amount of radioactivity in a very populated area," said Dan Hirsch, the head of a nuclear watchdog group called Committee to Bridge the Gap. "Bin Laden would love to do something like that."

At Texas A&M, Carnegie Fellows were able to join a guided tour with no background checks and without showing any ID. The guide informed the tour group that the reactor had "like no guards and stuff." Texas A&M says it has since changed its policy, requiring a background check a week in advance for anyone seeking entry to its nuclear reactor.

At MIT, Carnegie Fellows were able to obtain a sensitive reactor operating schedule and floor plans from Internet sites and the MIT library. NRC investigators said they were investigating why such information was publicly available. The ABC News investigation also found that a vehicle could stop, unchallenged, on a dirt road within 50 feet of the reactor building. An ABC News producer went unchallenged as he drove down the road in a large rental truck and stopped next to the reactor. (MIT says an independent study indicated the reactor, the second most powerful college nuclear reactor in the country, could withstand a large truck bomb.)

[jeffers]

I'm sorry, that really was the last chance I was willing to extend to you.

If you, at some indeterminate point in the future, feel compelled to substantiate your apparant claim that PUR-1 is subject to either meltdown or nuclear explosion, by some ethod other than quibbling over terminology, simple probability dictates that I will not see it, as future pings from you in my list will go unread.

Sorry, but that's the way it is.