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Fair Tax vs. Flat Tax
TownHall.Com ^ | 9/29/05 | Neeal Boortz and Daniel J. Mitchell

Posted on 09/29/2005 10:29:26 PM PDT by Sprite518

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To: Gunslingr3

I can see Congress issuing tax cards that determine your 'sales tax' rate based on your income and ethnicity.


61 posted on 09/30/2005 7:16:26 AM PDT by gitmo (Thanks, Mel. I needed that.)
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To: Republic of Texas

I thoroughly agree with that.

The income tax must be repealed as part of the plan to shift to a flat tax. None of this phasing one in while phasing the other out.

That's a prescription to get saddled with both.

But, in some areas we already are saddled with both. Don't we have sales tax on gasoline??? Are there other things the fed already has a sales tax on?


62 posted on 09/30/2005 7:17:28 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: Republic of Texas
If you read both bills HR 25 and S 25, then you will see that the Fair Tax can only take place as long as all other Federal taxes are repealed. That is a condition, and not subject to negotiation.

Yeah if its Add on to existing taxes, then it would never pass. Unless the politicians want a real short political career, and you know almost all of them do not want that.
63 posted on 09/30/2005 7:17:46 AM PDT by Sprite518
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To: Prime Choice; All

There are two main forces that affect the nature of the demand for a product. The Subsitution Effect says that you will substitute lower-cost goods for similar, but more expensive, goods. The Income Effect says that, if disposable income increases, you buy more of all goods. Since the FT eliminates all federal taxes, the Income Effect can offset any price increase that might result from the tax. For those goods whose demand is not sensitve to price changes (do you really shop around for the cheapest heart transplant?), the impact of the FT is virtually zero.

To me, however, the real benefit of the FT is that the federal gov't can't use tax policy to redirect resources. Finally, I've always believed I know how to spend my money better that the federal gov't does.


64 posted on 09/30/2005 7:28:49 AM PDT by econjack
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To: phil_will1
Only businesses would be audited. Individuals don't file returns; therefore there is nothing to audit at the individual level.

Bulloney. Anybody who gets a service or good for personal consumption from a non-regisitered retail, must file and remit the tax on that product. And with that requirement the INDIVIDUAL is open to an audit if the taxing authority happens to think you owe tax. Read your bill sometime.

65 posted on 09/30/2005 7:29:26 AM PDT by Always Right
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To: Sprite518
If you read both bills HR 25 and S 25, then you will see that the Fair Tax can only take place as long as all other Federal taxes are repealed. That is a condition, and not subject to negotiation.

LOL, it is just a bill. Everything is subject to negotiation and everything is admendable even after it passes. That is why many people want a Constitutional Amendment before they pass this.

66 posted on 09/30/2005 7:31:48 AM PDT by Always Right
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To: Sprite518

"The short Time that the Fair Tax has been out it has been a New York Times Best seller. I believe that says something. Moreover, there is a House and Senate Bill for the Fair Tax. HR 25 and S 25 are the Bills. Does the Flat tax even have a bill in congress."

Actually, there are several flat tax bills in congress. There is the Burgess bill in the house (which is what the Armey bill has morphed into) and the Shelby bill in the senate. There may be others. This brings up a problem in that most flat taxers aren't familiar enough with specific flat tax proposals to support a single bill. Prime Choice is a Prime Example (pun intended). He supports a flat tax bill which doesn't exist and probably has no other supporters in the country. Flat taxers in general (there are exceptions, I know) support a form of taxation, and not a specific proposal. FairTaxers have been criticized for supporting the FairTax, and not the more generic term, sales tax. That is because FairTaxers understand how important it is for those supporting fundamental tax reform to coalesce around a single plan. Having fragmented support plays into the hands of those who want to keep the status quo.


"I do not keep up on local politics in South Carolina. I did not even know that was a debate there?"

Yes, it was a big issue in the senate race there last year. Rep. Jim DeMint beat state education secretary Inez Tenenbaum by about 8 or 9 points, if memory serves. Very few South Carolinians ever heard of the FairTax before that race, but now we have quite a bit of support there. Sen. DeMint BTW is the sponsor of a bill very similar to the FairTax, one that David Burton, the author of both, says is "economically identical".

Apparently Sen. DeMint doesn't think his support for tax reform is crippling his career.


67 posted on 09/30/2005 7:33:12 AM PDT by phil_will1 (My posts are in no way limited or restricted by previously expressed SQL opinions)
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To: Always Right; phil_will1

Always Right,

Please show us where in HR 25 or S 25 it says this?


68 posted on 09/30/2005 7:33:29 AM PDT by Sprite518
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To: SolarisRocks
It will also require the tracking of every purchase made on the US portions of the internet. Something to think about.

And we've all seen just how "fair" the government has been in invading consumer privacy just to collect a few hundred dollars in tobacco taxes, haven't we?

Yup...it's damnably clear that the "fair tax" hounds haven't thought this one through.

69 posted on 09/30/2005 7:34:30 AM PDT by Prime Choice (E=mc^3. Don't drink and derive.)
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To: phil_will1
"FairTaxers understand how important it is for those supporting fundamental tax reform to coalesce around a single plan. Having fragmented support plays into the hands of those who want to keep the status quo."

Exactly.... Nice post...
70 posted on 09/30/2005 7:36:19 AM PDT by Sprite518
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To: Sprite518
If you read both bills HR 25 and S 25, then you will see that the Fair Tax can only take place as long as all other Federal taxes are repealed. That is a condition, and not subject to negotiation.

And we all know that bills never get amendments prior to passage.

But neverminding that, how about all those folks who actually saved their money that's already been taxed? They'll want to spend that in their retirement (or when purchasing large-ticket items) and they're going to get taxed twice on the same dollar.

Please tell me how that is "fair."

71 posted on 09/30/2005 7:37:49 AM PDT by Prime Choice (E=mc^3. Don't drink and derive.)
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To: Smokin' Joe

"No one seems to be considering what happens when home mortgage interest is no longer deductible."

If you're not paying federal income taxes, what possible difference does losing a tax deduction make? Your comment makes it sound like paying interest to a bank reduces the cost of your house. It doesn't. Under the FT, if you want to reduce your taxes, save more and spend less.


72 posted on 09/30/2005 7:38:27 AM PDT by econjack
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To: Always Right; Sprite518
Always Right: Crack you up??? Its all in your bill. Tax collection nazis would love the way your bill is written.

And exactly what parts of HR-25 and S-25 do you have a problem with?

73 posted on 09/30/2005 7:44:36 AM PDT by Paul C. Jesup
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To: Prime Choice

Oh so you can read their minds? LOL!

It is not there, but you know it will be there...LOL!


First off that is a very little select minority of retires that you are talking about. If they take out their retirement today, they will still get hit with Capital gains tax under the current tax system. In a Free Tax they will only get hit when the make purchases of goods and services....

You talk about getting taxed twice. The Feds are doing that today. Retirees get hit again when they die under the current system with the death tax...

That is a pretty weak argument...


74 posted on 09/30/2005 7:44:53 AM PDT by Sprite518
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To: Always Right

"Bulloney. Anybody who gets a service or good for personal consumption from a non-regisitered retail, must file and remit the tax on that product. And with that requirement the INDIVIDUAL is open to an audit if the taxing authority happens to think you owe tax. Read your bill sometime."

And what percentage of retail sales do you think will fall into this category - 2% maybe? You really think the federal government is going to go around doing personal audits on that kind of stuff?

Your paranoia is amazing. Tell me this, AR. The President's tax commission issued its interim report in April. That report was the culmination of several months of testimony by expert witnesses, public town hall type meetings, and internet submissions by the public. The title of that report was "America Needs a Better Tax System". How is it you are oblivious to the deficiencies of the current system which are readily apparent to the vast majority of Americans but insistent on exaggerating every defect (real or imagined) of the FairTax?

http://www.taxreformpanel.gov/index.shtml
"For millions of Americans, the annual rite of filing taxes has become a headache of burdensome record-keeping, lengthy instructions and complicated schedules,worksheets and forms, often requiring multiple computations that are neither logical nor intuitive."


75 posted on 09/30/2005 7:46:21 AM PDT by phil_will1 (My posts are in no way limited or restricted by previously expressed SQL opinions)
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To: Prime Choice
But neverminding that, how about all those folks who actually saved their money that's already been taxed? They'll want to spend that in their retirement (or when purchasing large-ticket items) and they're going to get taxed twice on the same dollar.

Simple, you can choose to keep that money and chose not spend it.

But in the current tax system/Income Tax those savings are taxed when you withdraw those savings.

76 posted on 09/30/2005 7:47:14 AM PDT by Paul C. Jesup
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To: econjack

Bingo....


77 posted on 09/30/2005 7:47:40 AM PDT by Sprite518
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To: Always Right

"LOL, it is just a bill. Everything is subject to negotiation and everything is admendable even after it passes."

That isn't an objection that is specific to the FairTax; it can be applied to any serious attempt to reform our tax system. Is that your position - are you opposed to any and all Fundamantal Tax Reform?


78 posted on 09/30/2005 7:49:33 AM PDT by phil_will1 (My posts are in no way limited or restricted by previously expressed SQL opinions)
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To: Getsmart64
Here in Italia...they have the Finanzia Policia...they can stop you within a 100 meters of a business and demand a receipt....if no receipt...a fine on the spot...

How much is the fine usually?

I'm sure that, here in the States, we'd wind up doing as much...only with bigger fines, and with RFID chips. If a product doesn't have RFID, the consumer will be branded a "tax evader" and subject to a "tax inventory," (the new "tax audit" by the "non-IRS" under the increasingly-misnamed "fair tax") that would beget even larger fines than the Italian government could ever conjure.

79 posted on 09/30/2005 7:53:21 AM PDT by Prime Choice (E=mc^3. Don't drink and derive.)
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To: Paul C. Jesup

The rate is quoted as 23% but to compute the tax on an item you multiple the price of the item by .2987 for a real tax SALES TAX rate of 29.87%.


80 posted on 09/30/2005 7:53:43 AM PDT by SolarisRocks
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