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Ex-Teacher Testifies in Evolution Case [Day 3 of trial in Dover, PA]
The Intelligencer (PA) via phillyBurbs ^ | 28 September 2005 | MARTHA RAFFAELE

Posted on 09/28/2005 4:11:22 AM PDT by PatrickHenry

click here to read article


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To: Matchett-PI

No, I'm taking it up with you. Sadly, there are no retraction or admission of previous errors on your part. Dare you address your prior misconstruals?

I looked up Ghiselin's book, and it seems at first glance to be a philosophical work, not a biology text. The quote by Darwin in question was written down in a pocket notebook. I found a cite for it here:

Paul H. Barrett, Peter J. Gautrey, Sandra Herbert, David Kohn, and Sydney Smith, editors, Charles Darwin's Notebooks, 1836-1844: Geology, Transmutation of Species, Metaphysical Enquiries (Cornell University Press, 1987), p. 539.


101 posted on 09/28/2005 1:33:34 PM PDT by Liberal Classic (No better friend, no worse enemy. Semper Fi.)
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To: zeeba neighba

You will have to ask coyoteman about moon gods. I'm thinking about pasta right now.


102 posted on 09/28/2005 1:34:17 PM PDT by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: js1138
Matchett-PI: "Origin of man now proved. -- Metaphysics must flourish. - He who understands baboon would do more toward Metaphysics than Locke." --- [Charles] Darwin, Notebook M, August 16, 1838

js1138: "And malt does more than Milton can To justify God's ways to man."

A non sequitur - but not an unexpected response from one who is under the influence and speaking from experience. LOL

103 posted on 09/28/2005 1:34:27 PM PDT by Matchett-PI ( "History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid." -- Dwight Eisenhower)
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To: highball
Monkeys and apes and humans share a common ancestor. Humans, monkeys and apes are all primates, but we did not "evolve from monkeys."

And the physical evidence is located where?

Do you realize just some of what is required for a new species to arise based on evolution?

104 posted on 09/28/2005 1:35:50 PM PDT by connectthedots
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To: PatrickHenry
How many Buddist or Hindu scientists believe the theory of gravity and relativity and quantum mechanics? a: A whole boatload of them. These theories are based and science and cross boundaries of belief.

I'm still waiting for a Buddist or Hindu to support ID. Science crosses the boundaries of believe. ID does not. Therefore.....

105 posted on 09/28/2005 1:40:03 PM PDT by GreenOgre (mohammed is the false prophet of a false god.)
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To: GreenOgre
Science crosses the boundaries of believe. ID does not. Therefore.....

Actually, the ID folks have some company in at least one other religion:

Science Research Foundation. Inspired by the books and writings of Harun Yahya (see next link).
Harun Yahya International. Islamic creationism
Islamic Scientific Creationism: A New Challenge in Turkey. Links between Harun Yahya and ICR's Gish and Morris.
SRF (Science Research Foundation) Conferences US and Islamic creationists working together.
Mustafa Akyol (Turkish creationist) testifies in Kansas "Monkey Trial". See the next link.
Why Muslims Should Support Intelligent Design, By Mustafa Akyol.

106 posted on 09/28/2005 1:45:12 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Disclaimer -- this information may be legally false in Kansas.)
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To: connectthedots

I trust that you are familiar with genetics?


107 posted on 09/28/2005 1:46:02 PM PDT by highball ("I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson)
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To: GreenOgre; Matchett-PI
How many Buddist or Hindu scientists believe the theory of gravity and relativity and quantum mechanics?

They would say that its all illusion. And they would be right.

108 posted on 09/28/2005 1:48:12 PM PDT by zeeba neighba (no crocs!)
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To: connectthedots
You are trying to compare physical problems with claims that are non-physical in nature. They are not the same. Of course, I would not tolerate teasing about physical deformities or anything else that unfairly ostracizes a child or any other person for that matter. I wouldn't tolerate a child telling another that she came from monkeys, because I don't believe it is true, as I have already said. My point was simply that her parents have little room to complain when they take a pro-evolution position.

So if she's teased for being Mormon, her parents have no grounds for complaint?

109 posted on 09/28/2005 1:49:06 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: js1138

It's all a Ruse!


110 posted on 09/28/2005 1:49:52 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: PatrickHenry
The non-jury trial is expected to take five weeks.

Five weeks is a long time for a slam-dunk case?

111 posted on 09/28/2005 1:51:02 PM PDT by shuckmaster (Free SeaLion and ModernMan!)
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To: connectthedots
Do you realize just some of what is required for a new species to arise based on evolution?

This is exactly what evolutionary biologists study.

112 posted on 09/28/2005 1:52:07 PM PDT by Quark2005 (Where's the science?)
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To: HighlyOpinionated
They are trying to force their religion on the the other 126,689 Dover residents.

What religion might that be?

113 posted on 09/28/2005 1:53:03 PM PDT by shuckmaster (Free SeaLion and ModernMan!)
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To: NVD

[I hope that others realize that this case is not about teaching an ID curriculum but simply reading a disclaimer.]


Think about what school would be like if every group that had a beef about what was being taught in a public school classroom were to codify a disclaimer against it.

Teachers would be spending a good portion of every day reading disclaimers. Do we really want to be wasting class time doing that?


114 posted on 09/28/2005 1:55:20 PM PDT by spinestein (Forget the Golden Rule. Remember the Brazen Rule.)
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To: connectthedots
Do you realize just some of what is required for a new species to arise based on evolution?

I believe the truthful answer would be: NO.

115 posted on 09/28/2005 1:55:36 PM PDT by KMJames
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To: PatrickHenry
More from the trial, from the Blog that cannot be named

ID would take us "backwards," MSU professor testifies

For anyone who ever napped through a college philosophy class (like this writer, for example), the morning session might not seem particularly attractive as it featured Dr. Robert Pennock, a professor of philosophy of science at Michigan State University. However, Dr. Pennock offered insightful testimony to further bolster our case. He even managed to bring some levity to the situation.

Dr. Pennock and Eric Rothschild, who handled direct questioning, analyzed statements by Dr. William Dembski, a key proponent of ID. The testimony included quotations from several of Dembski's writings. "They want to revolutionize science" Dr. Pennock stated. "They want a theistic science."

"They would turn us back to an earlier era," he noted, causing "the scientific community to take a number of steps backwards."

The various factions of creationists were also discussed, including Young Earth Creationists, Old Earth Creationists, and Special Creation. Dr. Pennock stated that intelligent design is an attempt to unite the factions.

"It is a strategy to unite against a common enemy," he said.

The morning session included several light moments. Dr. Pennock testified that referring to a "designer" rather than "God" is like referring to "Ambassador Wilson's wife" rather than "Valerie Plame Wilson." As the gallery laughed, Judge Jones chuckled and said, "As an example."

Also, when opposing counsel Patrick Gillen asked if he had ever heard evolution referred to as a "big tent theory," Dr. Pennock said curiously, "I can't say that I've ever heard it referred to as a 'Big Ten theory.'" When he realized his mistake, Dr. Pennock noted his position at Michigan State, and Gillen referred to his own degree from the University of Michigan.

This afternoon the court will deal with the issue of two York newspaper reporters who have been subpoenaed for testimony.

Submitted by Andy Hoover, community education organizer, ACLU of PA

116 posted on 09/28/2005 1:59:46 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: From many - one.; Admin Moderator
Whatever happened to SeaLion?

Only the admin moderator knows...

117 posted on 09/28/2005 2:00:27 PM PDT by shuckmaster (Free SeaLion and ModernMan!)
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To: longshadow
[did you hear about the recent crime spree in Amish country? ..... this past year there was a three-fold increase in drive-by shunnings!]



Of course it lasts a long time, because the "drive-by" takes place at the speed of horse and buggy.
118 posted on 09/28/2005 2:01:50 PM PDT by spinestein (Forget the Golden Rule. Remember the Brazen Rule.)
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To: Chiapet
We're all to understand that you read and comprehended that entire body of material, including the additional links in Ichneumon's post, in under an hour, and came to the above brilliant conclusion.

No one ever said the IDers were too bright. After all they accept ID on faith don't they?

119 posted on 09/28/2005 2:02:59 PM PDT by shuckmaster (Free SeaLion and ModernMan!)
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To: shuckmaster

But to be fair, those missing links and other phantasms are all accepted on faith.


120 posted on 09/28/2005 2:06:42 PM PDT by zeeba neighba (no crocs!)
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