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On second day, evolution trial [Dover, PA] delves into topic of faith
The Intelligencer (PA) via phillyBurbs ^ | 27 September 2005 | MARTHA RAFFAELE

Posted on 09/27/2005 9:21:27 AM PDT by PatrickHenry

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To: Antonello

Ya, SCOTUS often does that, and it is usually wrong when it does. I really need to be on SCOTUS to clean this one up a bit.


121 posted on 09/27/2005 8:07:57 PM PDT by Torie
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To: Torie
I am sorry to hear that you feel shortchanged in your education. Personally I would like to see a broadening and deepening of knowledge as well. I think I was very fortunate with my education; I went to a small school in a religious town, had class sizes of no more than 10-15 students, had a very confident and competent science teacher, and received 4 years of religious/scripture study as well.

Believe me, every question we ever had about evolution, or anything else for that matter, was always answered in whatever context we were seeking. Looking back, I am very grateful and impressed at how well they all worked together to keep the religious and secular sides separate but accessible.

This is what I mean about encouraging separate elective theological instruction. And it benefits as much as science does from the separation.

122 posted on 09/27/2005 8:23:35 PM PDT by Antonello
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To: Antonello
A cultural theology class should be an elective in public school. Theology is part of the public square. It should be better understood. In that regard, given my totally unreligious background, and never having read the bible, I have a gap in my intellectual portfolio. I did read some religious stories as a kid, by my own choosing, because I found them entertaining. By around the age of ten or so, I did not allow my parents to censor what I read. I made that quite clear to them. :) But then, the didn't try, even as I read a stack of mags from the New Republic and The Nation, and Bircher materials that were beside my bed. My parents were more worried that I was just odd. They were right. :)

I paved the way for my younger brother to "read" stuff that involved naked woman. In fact, they found it relatively speaking, reassuring. And so it goes.

123 posted on 09/27/2005 8:44:52 PM PDT by Torie
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To: curiosity
True, but the 1st Amendment has been incorporated, and that's the only one relevant to this case.

Just keeping it real.

124 posted on 09/27/2005 8:51:14 PM PDT by jwalsh07 ("Don't get stuck on stupid!" General Honore to twit reporter)
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To: Antonello
Fine. Do it in a private school, without my federal dollars, and not in the name of my government.

Do what in a private school? You simply continue to ignore the facts of this case, ignore the Constitutional issues and interject comments not relevant to the topic at hand. The issue is a simple one. Who controls local schools, the locals or the federal oligarchy. You get to be on one side or the other. Pick one and defend that position.

If you want to press for a refund of your federal dollars to pay for it I'll even support you.

I'm not looking for a rebate or support but I appreciate the thought. I'm looking for consistency from conservatives, what I get is hypocrisy. Such is life.

Just don't whine if an institute of higher education doesn't bend to your will and lower its standards to allow non science to be accepted for their requirements.

This argument is more garbage. My upbringing involved Catholic School and religious instruction right through the start of my senior year when I was the ripe old age of 15. I was taught that God created the Universe and all that is in it. I'm now 54 and much better read and have taught my children and am teaching my grandchildren that exact thing. None of that teaching affected my ability to understand science, physics or mathematics at the university level. And I paid for that education with my own money and, truth be told, an assist from the GI Bill while supporting my family.

Of course this is all I wished from the beginning.

What I wish for is consistency from members of the right. I don't always get it.

125 posted on 09/27/2005 9:07:23 PM PDT by jwalsh07 ("Don't get stuck on stupid!" General Honore to twit reporter)
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To: Torie
"Its policy requires school administrators to read a brief statement before classes on evolution that says Charles Darwin's theory is "not a fact" and has inexplicable "gaps." It refers students to an intelligent-design textbook for more information."

In a nutshell this is what the federal courts have involved themselves in. There is no teaching of alternative theories. There are no ID materials used in the course. A simple statement the elected school official's have chosen to have the bio teachers read at the beginning of the school year, to wit ToE has gaps.

126 posted on 09/27/2005 9:16:29 PM PDT by jwalsh07 ("Don't get stuck on stupid!" General Honore to twit reporter)
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To: jwalsh07

That is a pretty silly statement. I don't like statements qua statements with nothing more. That is not education, that is the public square covering its ass. I would
like something more substantive. If that is all this is about, it is a meaningless political football. If I were on SCOTUS, I would avoid like hell taking up this case. It is a waste of my time.


127 posted on 09/27/2005 9:21:48 PM PDT by Torie
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To: Torie

It's a waste of everybodys time. If Dover wants trite statements they have that power. Making a federal case out of a trite statement is where the sublime meets the ridiculous.


128 posted on 09/27/2005 9:24:59 PM PDT by jwalsh07 ("Don't get stuck on stupid!" General Honore to twit reporter)
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To: jwalsh07

I think you are onto the ultimate truth here. I get less and less patient with idiocy and posturing.


129 posted on 09/27/2005 9:28:37 PM PDT by Torie
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To: Torie; jwalsh07

I'll leave you two to your love-fest now. Have fun.


130 posted on 09/27/2005 9:35:54 PM PDT by Antonello
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To: Antonello

Smartest thing you've done since you got to this thread, got out.


131 posted on 09/27/2005 9:37:44 PM PDT by jwalsh07 ("Don't get stuck on stupid!" General Honore to twit reporter)
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To: Antonello
Jwalsh07 and I are indeed good friends. But we also call them as we see them, and disagree often (I am the in general more moderate near atheist, and John the more religious true blue conservative) and I always enjoy the company of intelligent commentary from any point of view. The key is be clear, honest and cogent in making one's case, and admit one's case's weaknesses. So many questions are shaded in varying shades of gray, with the devil in those noisome boring little details. JMO.
132 posted on 09/27/2005 9:40:57 PM PDT by Torie
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To: jwalsh07

Making the Dover school district into Congress, as in "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment . . .", is why this ridiculous lawsuit is being tried.


133 posted on 09/27/2005 9:42:41 PM PDT by Kryptonite
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To: Antonello
In other words, how likely it is that something happened is not proof that it didn't happen.

Yes it is.

This isn't a case of the odds against a winning lotter ticket being proof that someone didn't just win the lottery.

It's a case of the odds against the likelyhood that the winning ticket was formed by someone spraying black paint into the air, and it happend to land on a random piece of paper, which was exaclty like a lottery ticket, and the droplets of black ink exactly formed the winning number, in the correct font, etc. etc. etc.

134 posted on 09/27/2005 10:15:26 PM PDT by GSHastings
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Comment #135 Removed by Moderator

Comment #136 Removed by Moderator

To: johnnyb_61820
You seem confused about the difference between evolution and the theory of evolution. There is a difference you know?
137 posted on 09/28/2005 1:53:03 AM PDT by shuckmaster (Free SeaLion and ModernMan!)
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To: Right Wing Professor

"Oh, well that makes it OK then."

Just hoping that you have not developed a persecution complex.


138 posted on 09/28/2005 8:22:08 AM PDT by Free Baptist
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To: Torie
That is a pretty silly statement. I don't like statements qua statements with nothing more. That is not education, that is the public square covering its ass. I would like something more substantive. If that is all this is about, it is a meaningless political football. If I were on SCOTUS, I would avoid like hell taking up this case. It is a waste of my time.

It s a very useful case, though, for the ACLU. The Discovery Institute has been very carefully advising school districts to 'teach the controversy' - to try to pretend there are scientific issues with evolution, without themselves setting up a target that the ACLU can use to defeat ID. But Dover did it all wrong. They created an extensive public record to show that their policy was religiously motivated, and that intelligent design was embraced as a religious alternative to evolution; and then they accepted a gift of a creationist textbook in which, at the last minute, the word creationism was replaced with 'intelligent design', thereby creating positive evidence the two are in essence the same. The ACLU could not have asked for better; what they hope they'll get (and IMO they will surely get, unless Thomas More is smart enough to drop the case after the district court verdict) is a precedent that says that ID really is 'creationism in a cheap tuxedo', excluded from public schools under the same decisions that barred creationism. That's why DI wouldn't cooperate with Thomas More in defending the case, and why they really, really hope the case will go away.

If I were a conspiracy theorist, though, I'd recall that Thomas More was actually set up by a Catholic millionaire. The Catholic Church - most of it, at least - has no problem with evolution; and in fact are highly suspicious of the biblical literalism that motivates most creationists. By taking this case, they endear themselves to the fundamentalist community, with whom they're allied on a lot of other issues; and yet, they could easily, by losing, deal a serious blow to the whole creationist movement.

Good thing I'm not a conspiracy theorist :-)

139 posted on 09/28/2005 8:44:00 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: Antonello; jwalsh07
You do yourself a disservice by showing absolute ignorance regarding the weight of motive in a courtroom. That is all I have to say on that as far as the legal case goes. But how about in your heart? Do you excuse their motives because you like what they are saying? Does that not make you an accomplice to their deception?

And what about the motives of the plaintiffs in this case? Seems they have yet to present an expert witness that will claim evolution is true. At best, they merely claim it is a theory. Isn't that exactly what the Dover Goard of Education is claiming?

140 posted on 09/28/2005 9:33:25 AM PDT by connectthedots
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