U.S. Army soldier Lynndie England is convicted

CNN ^ | 09/26/2005 | AP

[El Gato]

The military is only place in America where you do not get a jury of your peers. This speaks volumes on how the military protects the officers and sends the enlisted to the brig. The 1-star is demoted to Col and allowed to retire with FULL benefits. At 24 years, (I don't know for sure, but I'm estimating her time-in-sevice) her base pay is $8,174 and at 60% (which is what you get at 24 years), that comes out to $4,904 per month along with annual COLA increases. Meanwhile, the PFC will be in jail.

Bull Pucky! Enlisted members can choose to have enlisted members on their panel if they so desire. Generally they don't because the enlisted members will generally be harder on them than officers would be. They don't get to have all enlisted however, but as I said, they probably would rarely choose that option.

If The officers can be proved to have committed similar crimes, as opposed to just not being in control as they should have been, IOW not doing their job properly, they'll get the same treatment. If the general, or any other officer, ordered the crimes to be committed, and thus were part of the crime, they would be tried and convicted, and probably get a harsher sentence. As it is often is, their "crime" wouldn't even be a crime if not for their command responsibilities.

[spunkets]

My impression of that whole event was that it was more than a Lord of the Flies type scenario. Gen. Whats_her_name was quoted in one of the reports that she was told by "lower ranking CIA" that she was not allowed to walk the halls of the prison she was in charge of. I really find it hard to believe that these prisoners were dressed and undressed as different officers and interrogators came through and that no one knew what was going on.

My take is that this private was just following the lead and absence of lead from above and all around her.

[El Gato]

At 24 years, (I don't know for sure, but I'm estimating her time-in-sevice) her base pay is $8,174 and at 60% (which is what you get at 24 years), that comes out to $4,904 per month along with annual COLA increases. Meanwhile, the PFC will be in jail.

The colonel was a reservist. She's probably got more years of service than you think. (She certainly looks older than 48 or so, which is what she would be if she'd been commisioned at 24 and served 24 years). However she also only gets a fraction of what her rank and years of service would entitle her too if she had been active duty. And she doesn't start collecting it until, IIRC, she's 65 years old, not upon retirement like active duty folks. The fraction is determined by the average number of points she accrued. Reservists, including National Guard, get two points per day (one per 4 hour "drill") of inactive duty and one for each day of active duty. Plus points can be accrued by taking correspondence courses (and probably on-line ones now). For a unit reservist (there are other types who typically serve less time each year) that means 24 days or 48 points of inactive duty and about 14 or 15 days of active duty each year. That's 63 points, plus they get an additional 15 points for each "good year" they serve. That's 78 points, so call it 100 for the hyper participation that gets one to General in the first place. So she gets 100/365 or less than 1/3 of what an active duty retiree would get. She also doesn't get the health care benifits until she's 65.

[KC Burke]

Having been in the Guard and Reserve, I can say that people were trained in their MOS and general duties. The rules and regs were emphasized more in these units as the physical training exercises were harder to schedule, beyond annual training.

This was night shift scumbag party fodder -- for her and for her NCOs that orchestrated it. They knew it was entirely against regulations, of that I have no doubt.

I have no regard for their target but a great regard for my uniform, unit and the armed forces and that is what they chose to dishonor -- not the targets of their mistreatment.

The other gal, the one with the camera most of the time -- she was an instigator and a wierd one at that. She wasn't in any pictures that I saw, but she is the one that really creeps me out.

To say that those that commited the abuse should get a mere slap on the wrists because higher ups should have know, is failing to have consequences for criminal behavior -- and that is what this was.

[sam_paine]

"Son! Fat, drunk and pregnant is no way to go through life."

[NJ_gent]

"Convicted of what? Smoking in a federal building?"

From the article: "guilty of one count of conspiracy, four counts of maltreating detainees and one count of committing an indecent act."

I'm not seeing the smoking thing in that list. It appears that U.S. Army Pfc. Lynndie England committed six violations of the UCMJ, admitted to the acts, and is now going to be punished for them. This seems rather simple to me, and shows that our military is perfectly capable of policing its own without a bunch of internet message board posters or foreign governments second guessing it.

[NJ_gent]

"Why not just hold them in a civil manner?"

Because we feeeel angry and should be able to take whatever actions we please without any consequences! /Liberal

[NJ_gent]

"Not a jail time offense in a sane world."

Five United States military officers with a better understanding of the Uniform Code of Military Justice and the facts surrounding this case than any of us would tend to disagree. They deal with law in the military courts; not feelings.

[NJ_gent]

"Can you imagine the press getting the ok to releasing photos like that during WWII?? I can't!"

I don't consider giving our private press better access with less restrictions a bad thing. Greater freedom of the press is something we should be proud of, in my opinion. That said, I think it's a real shame that the press chose to run these pictures knowing full well that it would cause harm to the men and women we have over there. It would really be great to have the news organizations (Fox included) get back to doing news as news, instead of news as a form of entertainment. When I go looking for news, I want to be informed; not entertained. These people need to start taking their jobs more seriously.

[NJ_gent]

"She's a scapegoat to pacify the anti-americans in the media and democrat party. She should be promoted to hostess at Club Gitmo."

You believe that military personnel ought to be able to violate the UCMJ at will without consequence? Seriously?

There's a reason we employ a professional fighting force in this country. To operate without the UCMJ would mean that we're a nation defended by lowlife mercenaries undeserving of anything but their payment. The reason we're as effective as we are is largely due to the professionalism shown by the vast majority of the folks wearing military uniforms.

[NJ_gent]

"Caving in to political correctness."

Enforcing the UCMJ is not caving into anything but law and order. Sorry, but military personnel operate under the UCMJ for a reason.

[NJ_gent]

"It will be interesting to see how many people feel Ms.Englund deserved a draconian prison sentence ten years from now."

What does it matter how people feeeel? She'll get an appropriate punishment as per the interpretation of the UCMJ by five military officers. Contrary to what some may like to claim, she's not a poor little persecuted baby; she's an adult who chose to join the military, chose to live under the UCMJ, chose to violate the UCMJ, and is now being punished accordingly.

[NJ_gent]

"They're lucky I wasn't guarding them..."

Judging by the military's response to the incidents, I'd say you're lucky you weren't guarding them as well.

[jscottdavis_for_48th_district]

I agree!

Also, I don't condone what they did, but they were abusing some of the most savage killers alive. Thus, this issue of protecting the prisoners is one of the last on my list of priorities.

~Scott~

[Colorado Doug]

Convicted of what? Smoking in a federal building? She committed an Article 15-type offense and is going to get hammered because it received media attention.

I think it was her attorney that released the photographs to the media and blamed her superiors for everything. Not a smart move.

[jscottdavis_for_48th_district]

Her so called crimes are far, far less than what Saddam Hussein's regime and the al Queda have done! I don't condone what she did, but she was simply abusing the most savage killers alive.

~Scott~

[Thinkin' Gal]

I think the military FR can not afford to adopt differing scales of justice based on how intelligent people are percieved.

;-)

[freespirited]

The ASVAB's have changed quite a bit from your time...they are much harder...that is why I wonder how she passed them....even my 1sg hubby questions this.

Only four sections of the ASVAB are used to determine eligibility to join the service--the basic tests of vocabulary, reading, arithmetic, and math knowledge. A single score is computed from the results of those four sections. You only have to be in the 30th percentile to be eligible to enlist in the Army.

The other services are a little to a lot pickier, I think.

[StACase]

85 posts before someone nailed it. Don't forget the other eight enlisted that were convicted earlier. No officers convicted! This stinks!

[plain talk]

The 1-star is demoted to Col and allowed to retire with FULL benefits. At 24 years, (I don't know for sure, but I'm estimating her time-in-sevice) her base pay is $8,174 and at 60% (which is what you get at 24 years), that comes out to $4,904 per month along with annual COLA increases. Meanwhile, the PFC will be in jail.

Does anyone have a problem with that? The PFC did the dirty deed and should be the one who gets punished. The officer had nothing to do with it but didn't provide sufficient leadership and got demoted. Looks about right to me.

Jury of your peers? Are you saying the jury should consist of enlisted men only and no officers because it's a PFC on trial? That's nuts. Your comments sound like class mongering BS.