University of California system sued over creationism

National Center for Science Education ^ | 08 September 2005 | Staff

[metmom]

I'm pretty skeptical of the 6,000 years old earth idea myself. I've read about the guy who calculated it out and I find it rather um... questionable. To be perfectly honest, I don't really CARE how old the Earth is. What possible difference could it make to me it the Earth is 6,000 years old or 6,000,000,000? I've only been around for the last 50. I firmly believed in evolution until I became a Christian in my 20's. And got my degree with a 3.3 average fully believing that God created it pretty much as it is. I was taught evolution in high school so am aware of what it is, not just the creationists version of it. This universe is so complicated and beautiful that I find it less of a stretch to believe that it was created this way than that it just happened. It bugs me, too, that some Christians believe that you have to accept the 6,000 years old earth idea or you're not a good Christian. That's just legalism.

[snarks_when_bored]

Are parts of it in trouble? Yes. English departments and sociology departments and political science departments are pretty much complete write-offs.

And that's a national tragedy.

I hope you're not one of those natural science types who is willing to write off up at the softer discipines. They're all equally important.

I don't think all disciplines are equally important, but I'd never write off the humanities toto caelo. What needs to happen (and likely won't any time soon) is an ideological fumigation. I'm for free thought, free inquiry and free speech, however many toes get stepped on in the process. Many college humanities departments are under the virtual (if not literal) control of eco-marxist-feminist-women-of-color (and other women and men who either agree with them or else are afraid to stand up to them). If you disagree with them, depart from their list of talking points even at #273, they'll slice you like a 10-day-old peeled banana. This has to end.

[longshadow]

Interesting that none of the plaintiffs have actually been rejected or discriminated against by the UC system as yet.

Ahhhhh! Sounds like the they have as yet no standing to sue; ergo this case is in all likelihood a publicity stunt, most likely to for the purpose of raising money.

[snarks_when_bored]

Good luck with your nursing studies, and I'm sorry as hell to hear that you've got to hide your true nature in order to make it through the, uh, less rigorous portions of your curriculum. It wasn't quite that bad when I was in school.

[NJ_gent]

"Yeah, but algebra is so basic to any understanding of all math where evolution is not even needed in some sciences."

Algebra often isn't addressed prior to high school. It's basic to understanding all of higher math, but nothing prior to it. You certainly can't understand pre-calc or calculus without it. As such, it would make sense for a college to deny admission to those who lack a thorough knowledge and understanding of algebra.

"evolution is not even needed in some sciences."

Sure, but it's vital to life sciences. If the ToE is not presented, presented inadequately, or presented incorrectly, it undermines a good portion of college-level life sciences. You can't understand an ecosystem without understanding its components, and a thorough knowledge and understanding of the ToE is required for that. Frankly, those who don't understand the ToE are incapable of understanding the relationships between different life forms.

"Not believing in evolution would have no effect"

What is believed is not at issue here. It doesn't matter whether a given student believes the Theory of Evolution or not, so long as he understands it well enough that knowledge and understanding can be built on top of it. That may well lead to his not believing a lot of what he learns in college life sciences, but at least he'll have the knowledge. Look at it this way, the students who do believe in the ToE who've graduated from schools using those textbooks are being denied admission under this policy right along with everyone else. Their belief in the ToE is irrelevant to the fact that they don't have sufficient understanding of it to succeed in the University of California's life science courses.

"I don't care what my doctor believes that way, I just care that he's a good doctor."

Exactly! So long as the doctor has the knowledge and understanding of human anatomy and physiology and medical science to properly diagnose and treat you, it doesn't matter if he's a Raelian who believes you were created by space aliens. As such, it doesn't matter if little Johnny believes in the Theory of Evolution. If he doesn't understand it to the extent that the University of California is satisfied that he will succeed in their life sciences courses, he will be denied admission. It is the knowledge and understanding that are important; not the beliefs.

"It's not like a belief in creation, or not having a full understanding of evolution, disqualifies you from being able to function in society."

Certainly not, but is everyone who's able to function in society capable of succeeding in the University of California's life sciences courses? Of course not; so not everyone is granted admission. The admissions process exists to ensure that the school's admitted students have the greatest possible chance to succeed at the school. That's why they don't take D-students who are strung out on crack and rob 7-11s for fun on weekends. Such students tend not to perform particularly well at the collegiate level. :-)

[Rudder]

The U-Cal system better prove it or else they should let Christian educated students enroll.

You missed the point. The issue is qualification based upon a student having successfully completed prerequesite subject matter.

I went to a Christian college and was given a full scholarship to enroll in the UC system for graduate work in science.

[metmom]

Actually, I agree with explodingspleen about the standardized test scores. These would not be SAT but Iowa's, CAT (CA Achievement Test), etc. These are the tests they give to all the students in a grade across the board. They show how the child compares to their peers even nationwide. They are a lot like pre-SAT's. Because we homeschool and I am qualified to administer the standardized tests myself, I've seen these tests compared to the SAT's you can find in the SAT practice books. They're similar except for the difficulty level.

[curiosity]

Many college humanities departments are under the virtual (if not literal) control of eco-marxist-feminist-women-of-color (and other women and men who either agree with them or else are afraid to stand up to them). If you disagree with them, depart from their list of talking points even at #273, they'll slice you like a 10-day-old peeled banana. This has to end.

Yup. Now if only we could manage to attack this kind of garbage in the humanities without the creationists trying to do the same thing in the natural sciences.

[metmom]

LOL. Good for you. Hmm. You can qualify for graduate work which is held to a higher standard than bachelors degrees and come from a Christian college but can't do undergrad if you come from a Christian high school? I've always believed that once you have your college degree your high school diploma is worth about toilet paper. If you've qualified to graduate college your education has far out-stripped what you learned in high school.

[curiosity]

If your objection is simply that the material is covered at all,

No. My objection is that the book is likely filled with misinformation, which is going to get taught to students as if it were science, which it is not.

Now maybe, just maybe, the student is lucky enough to have a teacher who did not teach the misinforamtion. I very much doubt it, however.

[NJ_gent]

Please read my above response regarding standardized tests. SAT Is aren't knowledge tests; they're logic tests. Other standardized tests can be useful, but not to the exlusion of other information regarding the education of the individual. No standardized test is comprehensive enough to tell a given college or university that students who do well on it have the knowledge and understanding of the whole range of topics necessary to succeed in various courses of study. That's why admissions policies take other things into consideration; such as the quality of the classes the student has taken.

[NJ_gent]

"can't do undergrad if you come from a Christian high school?"

The policy in question does not disriminate against those who've come from a Christian high school. The policy is set to deny admission to those who've been taught from a specific set of textbooks, regardless of the religious affiliation of the school using them.

[Rudder]

If you've qualified to graduate college your education has far out-stripped what you learned in high school.

Well, for the most part, yeah. But in high school the boys had to switch with the girls for a semester: Girls took shop, while the boys took home economics...it was there, and not college, where I learned how to make biscuits from scratch.

[Doctor Stochastic]

However, lack of understanding of evolutionary theory may lead a doctor to poorly thought out drug therapies.

[metmom]

You can't understand an ecosystem without understanding its components, and a thorough knowledge and understanding of the ToE is required for that. Frankly, those who don't understand the ToE are incapable of understanding the relationships between different life forms.


I guess I don't understand why people think it's so critical to know HOW everything came about. I think that understanding the relationships between different organisms and how they interact in an ecosystem is more a matter of observation. Knowing how they got there doesn't really affect how they get along now and what course of action is needed to address their problems and future. I think that most creationists reaction to this decision by UC is one that would be taken if the roles were reversed. As a matter of fact, my understanding of the Scopes Trials was that people wanted evolution taught IN ADDITION TO AND ALONGSIDE OF creation. We have now come to where evolution is taught as creation once was, and the creationists are simply asking for equal time as the evolutionsists once did. The problem is that they are not being taught equally. Creationism is being dismissed off hand as a myth and not considered worthy to be given serious consideration by any reputable scientist. It's gotten to the point where although evolution is still called a theory, it's accepted as fact. The idea that God created the universe is almost condsidered anti-intellectual.
You're right; math and algebra are not the same. I was thinking of it in terms of prep for college level math. I had to take Calc without the benefit of high school trig and it was a killer but it could be done. I even passed!

[js1138]

However, lack of understanding of evolutionary theory may lead a doctor to poorly thought out drug therapies.

Or poorly thought out heart transplants.

[metmom]

Most of what I've needed to know to get through life, I never learned in college. Yes, it prepared me for a job but the day to day functioning stuff I learned from family, friends, and trial and error. When I went to school, many moons ago, I did not have that option to take shop. I wish I could've but in those days, it just wasn't done, and I went to a good high school, too. I'm glad kids have the option.

[js1138]

Knowing how they got there doesn't really affect how they get along now and what course of action is needed to address their problems and future.

I suppose sentences like this are what leads people to think creationism is anti-intellectual.

[metmom]

Please explain what possible connection there could be to performing a heart transplant and understanding the ToE. I really want to know cause I see no connection between the physical workings of the heart and how it got there. I really don't see how a "proper" understanding of the theory of evolution can affect his understanding or performance of heart transplants. All the issues around transplant failure seem to be "mechanical" type issues like organ rejection and how to deal with it.

[SoCal_Republican]

I have a BSEE with a minor in physics and I don't recall ever having to know anything about man evolving from ape-like creatures or birds coming from dinosaurs to get the degree. I think UCLA is pushing it a bit. I would be fine with it if the 'offending' incoming freshman had to take a course that included evolution (even if they are math majors!).