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Greek plane had 'many problems' (Unbelievable!)
News 24 , South Africa ^ | Sept 7, 2005 | unknown

Posted on 09/07/2005 11:51:55 AM PDT by zipper

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To: Who dat?
The Pressurization Controller is in the Aft E & E bay

Well, heck! That's the problem! They got the darn valve from Ebay for Chrissakes!

41 posted on 09/07/2005 2:43:45 PM PDT by China Clipper
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To: zipper

Yes, the cooling alarm is activiated with too little airflow over electronics equipment. It is hard to hear in flight. I had a false one once and only heard it after getting to the gate. It is meant to alert ground crew that cooling fans are not powered, usualy due to ground crew not turning on, or turning off the external power.


42 posted on 09/07/2005 2:45:45 PM PDT by AmericanDave (God bless .......and MORE COWBELL)
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To: safisoft

"This warning is caused by the lack of pressurization as well. It led to insufficient airflow for cooling avionics."

I wonder why maintenence control didn't pick up on this, a dual cue to a pressurization problem?

Do you realy think they only needed to move the pressurization controler from manual to auto? I would have found that in about two seconds (and have).


43 posted on 09/07/2005 2:56:27 PM PDT by AmericanDave (God bless .......and MORE COWBELL)
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To: safisoft
Discovery of the language barrier reveals that the First Officer and/or the Captain were very likely new and/or inexperienced.

Wasn't there something about the original Greek pilot refusing to fly the plane and them ending up with a substitute German pilot?

44 posted on 09/07/2005 3:02:25 PM PDT by T. P. Pole
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To: konaice

"That leaves only 10 mintues of tape to accomodate all the chatter for the last two hours."

Not exactly, it is a continous loop, and if nothing is recorded for the last two hours except wind noise, it might be able to extract the earlier conversations.


45 posted on 09/07/2005 3:03:18 PM PDT by AmericanDave (God bless .......and MORE COWBELL)
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To: zipper

Ah, the happy results of multiculturalism!


46 posted on 09/07/2005 3:06:04 PM PDT by Bernard Marx (Don't make the mistake of interpreting my Civility as Servility)
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To: safisoft; AmericanDave
Good info-- thanks for chiming in. I agree will your points, though I'm wondering why a pressurization controller rotary knob would be placed in the cockpit at all (okay-- probably for proximity to the CPC's and for maintenance ease). I'm also assuming this knob is normally safety-wired open.

As (I think) AmericanDave pointed out, the loud pressurization horn is not activated by the lack of flow to the avionics compartment; the ascent through thresholds of (lower) cabin pressure do. The effect of low cabin pressure leads to lower flow through the avionics compartment, which in turn causes the avionics cooling-related alert-- a separate function.

I found the 737 MMEL revision 45.a:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/B737R45A.pdf

Isn't the internet wonderful?

I think they had two 800 series and one 300 series-- not sure about the other one.

47 posted on 09/07/2005 3:09:05 PM PDT by zipper (Freedom Isn't Free)
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To: Bernard Marx
Yes, there are many airlines that have this problem, overseas. Take Korean Air (aka "Collision Air"), for example. They had a series of crashes that jeopardized their insurance coverage a few years ago. The problem was the cultural environment, in which the Korean Captain is all-powerful, oblivious to input from other crewmembers. The Agana, Guam crash was a classic manifestation of this. Another crash of a 747 on takeoff at Stansted was also indicative of this cultural problem (the Captain followed his faulty attitude indicator into the ground, though the f/o had a good attitude indicator). The ultimate solution ended up being hiring almost 100 (I heard 99) English-as-primary-language Captains, straight into the Captain seat. It really p.o.'d the Korean pilots but it changed the culture of their cockpits and their record is better now (though I still wouldn't want to fly with them! Not all the Captains are foreigners).
48 posted on 09/07/2005 3:15:53 PM PDT by zipper (Freedom Isn't Free)
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To: AmericanDave
"This warning is caused by the lack of pressurization as well. It led to insufficient airflow for cooling avionics." I wonder why maintenence control didn't pick up on this, a dual cue to a pressurization problem?

Because on the ground fans operate for cooling, since there is no pressure differential to force airflow across the avionics components. Likewise in flight the fans back up the venturi-induced airflow.

49 posted on 09/07/2005 3:17:55 PM PDT by zipper (Freedom Isn't Free)
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To: HoustonCurmudgeon
I had an Air Ethiopia flight in 1989. The entire time I was thinking "if they can't feed their people, I wonder if they buy oil for this thing?"

Holy cow, count your blessings!

50 posted on 09/07/2005 3:21:17 PM PDT by zipper (Freedom Isn't Free)
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To: zipper

Hell, that's nothing! The 349th 747 just blew up over Long Island as it's center fuel tank exploded. Damn things just keep blowin' up for some reason! Sure, so far they've onlt killed a little over a 100,000 passengers, but don't ya think we could figure it out by now???


51 posted on 09/07/2005 3:22:09 PM PDT by Doc Savage (...because they stand on a wall, and they say nothing is going to hurt you tonight, not on my watch!)
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To: AmericanDave
Not exactly, it is a continous loop, and if nothing is recorded for the last two hours except wind noise, it might be able to extract the earlier conversations.

It also occured to me it might be a Voice Activated recorder, which would stop recording if the mikes went quiet.

52 posted on 09/07/2005 3:30:59 PM PDT by konaice
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To: Doc Savage
Yeah I think the story is, the fuel in the center tank was heated by the airplane's APU (a jet engine self-contained in the aircraft just for electrical and high-pressure air purposes) on the ground. The hot vapors ignited during the climb as the internal fuel pump provided an ignition source.

That's their story and they're stickin' to it.

53 posted on 09/07/2005 3:33:07 PM PDT by zipper (Freedom Isn't Free)
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To: zipper

While flying on C-130's in Florida we took off one day and everything seemed normal. As we climbed out to altitude, I was in the very back of the bird and heard a loud 'bang' and my ears started popping. I called the AC on the intercom and ask him if we were in a decompression and both pilot and copilot first said they weren't aware of anything wrong. They then checked the cabin pressure and sure enough, it was dropping.

We aborted the mission, did a controlability check and went back to Homestead.

The problem was caused by corrosion due to the urinal leaking. Boy, were we pissed off....


54 posted on 09/07/2005 3:46:30 PM PDT by CommandoFrank (Peer into the depths of hell and you will find the face of Islam...)
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To: CommandoFrank

Funny story--

better pissed off than pissed on


55 posted on 09/07/2005 3:50:11 PM PDT by zipper (Freedom Isn't Free)
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To: CommandoFrank
There was a Marine C-130 crew at Subic a few years ago (okay, dammit, many years ago!) that decided to drop some jumpers in a HALO drop. They spiraled up to 30,000-plus feet. 30,000 feet unpressurized! In a C-130! Even on 100 per cent you can only function up to about 25,000, and the Air Force regs you must pre-breath for 30 minutes even for an 18,000 foot drop (going from memory here). Anyway that kind of altitude is not a good idea-- especially when it takes you forever since the ceiling of an empty C130 is usually around 33,000 empty. So they got dizzy and all either passed out or nearly passed out, and finally decided to descend and get their wits together. Needless to say they knocked off the drop and got in a boatload of trouble over the whole thing when they landed.

That whole thing was almost an example of classic Darwinian evolution.

56 posted on 09/07/2005 3:58:04 PM PDT by zipper (Freedom Isn't Free)
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To: Congressman Billybob; zipper
Honduran airlines

Having taken the boat up to a ranch in the Paraguayan Chaco region that took a full day due to the amazing, winding curves of the river, I decided to fly back to the capital, less than an hour's flight. The only line that flew the route was the military line, Transito Aero Militar. My host joked that it was better known as Transito Al Muerte. Well, it was half a joke.

The first plane had to return to the airport b/c the rear door opened mid-flight, leaving the luggage dangling in the wind, held only by the webbed straps that the crew, thankfully, secured. Into the next plane, one engine wouldn't start, even after a rather disconcerting attempt to jump it with common jumper cables and an old Jeep. After a wait, we were switched back to the original plane, which, we were told, was fixed. Flight was okay, discounting the lady puking across from us and the rest of the passengers nearing the same. We got to the capital, and touched down, at which point one of the wheels collapsed, and we skidded to a very quick stop.

I drove next trip.

Oh, another time I flew into that city in a G-III, piloted by a local. An American Air 767 was approaching at the same time. In spanish our pilot told the control tower to give us landing preference. The curses from the AA pilot were unforgettable!

57 posted on 09/07/2005 4:11:47 PM PDT by nicollo (All economics are politics.)
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To: nicollo
It's a wonder they don't have a lot more crashes down there.

Reminds me of stories of flying in Africa, especially sub-saharan Africa-- a real garden-spot.

58 posted on 09/07/2005 4:24:59 PM PDT by zipper (Freedom Isn't Free)
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To: safisoft

I did a little reading on airliners.net-- so it was a simple question of auto or manual position. One of the earlier posts led me to believe there was a separate control knob in an inaccessible lower compartment. Anyway apparently they left the outflow valve fully open and took off without repositioning it or moving the knob to auto-- definitely a dumb move, but you'd think they would've caught all the other cues, including physical ones. Might as well have taken off with a door open.


59 posted on 09/07/2005 4:30:54 PM PDT by zipper (Freedom Isn't Free)
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To: zipper

"People, you need to be careful who you fly with. Generally speaking, small airlines in third world countries are dangerous."

Agree with that. Also agree at a push that Helios could be described as a 'small airline' (it is relative). But Greece is hardly third third world.

Helios operates flights in the UK and other third world countries. As such it is licenced and is 'supposed' to meet certain criterea. Given the story above I'm left wondering - is the UK criterea too low - or are the checks once they get their licence inadequate? Either way it is scary stuff.

For the record, most EU countries are going to publish their 'blacklists' (airlines so low on safety they wont allow them in their airspace) by the end of the year. For those on exotic holidays soon you may wish to check your carrier against these two lists....

French list
Air Koryo, North Korea
Air Saint-Thomas, US Virgin Islands
International Air Service, Liberia
Air Mozambique (LAM), including its subsidiary Transairways
Phuket Airlines, Thailand



Belgian list
Africa Lines, Central African Republic
Air Memphis, Egypt
Air Van Airlines, Armenia
Central Air Express, Democratic Republic of Congo
ICTTPW, Libya
International Air Tours Ltd., Nigeria
Johnsons Air Ltd., Ghana
Silverback Cargo Freighters, Rwanda
South Airlines, Ukraine


60 posted on 09/07/2005 4:41:30 PM PDT by Brit_Guy
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