Posted on 09/02/2005 10:05:18 PM PDT by NonZeroSum
You still have not defined "price gouging." In order to accuse someone of "price gouging" you need a definition of price gouging. You cannot enforce a law fairly based on subjective opinion.
You still have not defined "price gouging." In order to accuse someone of "price gouging" you need a definition of price gouging. You cannot enforce a law fairly based on subjective opinion.
Give it up. Subject closed. Talked to death.
Zero, Thanks for posting this.
Bunny/Zero, We have a local morning radio show and for the last week or so they have been railing about gas prices. They have made statements that they understand supply and demand and then rail on the huge profits the oil companies are making off the backs of the people in the disaster.
Well, this morning in their first news segment they covered a story about gas stations not raising their prices due to fear of prosecution for "gouging". Then a story or two later they covered a press release that asked that people not come to the Gulf to help with the efforts. This was due to there not being enough GAS to power all the vehicles being brought there.
They couldn't get the connection that the use of the inability to raise prices was causing the use of the scarce resource to occur in an area where it was not needed.
Anti price gouging legislation prolongs suffering!
"In the area of the disaster, such as in NO, the demand would not remain the same, as everything is underwater and unusable. And the town is a ghost town, so there is no demand to be had, as there will be no people to demand it. NO is dead, for all ostensible purposes."
Do you not see the use of resources in the rescue missions? Can you see the connection between the lower prices out of fear for "gouging" prosecution and the fact that there is not enough gas available to use all the equipment that is being taken to the gulf?
"However, you have just set up the perfect condition for price gouging, haven't you. At least amongst unconscionable shysters who would financially attempt to feed off of other people's grief. Do you include yourself as one who would price gouge? Profit off of people's desperation? Are you one of them?"
In your first statement you are stating that there is no shortage because there is no useage, now you are stating that the "gougers" are taking advantage of these fictitious users. How does someone take advantage of a person that doesn't need the resource?
"If they waited until next week, or the week after, they might be justified, but not this week."
If they waited until next week, how would they pay for their full tank? With the profits they make this week they could only afford to fill 3/4's of their tank.
Which do you want? The inefficiency caused by only partially filling tanks, or the higher price this week so they can afford to fill their tanks all the way?
The station owners are not on a cash-only basis. They have terms, which means they can have the fuel delivered and sell it before having to pay for it. That's the plan anyway.
"Yes, to put in their cars that are underwater."
Or in the boats used for rescue, or in the chainsaws cutting thru roofs, or in helicopters, or generators, or....
Why are you so selfish that you are unwilling to deal with the price increase that forces you to change your habits, while the market tries to reallocate fuel to the disaster area to be used for rescue efforts.
Price restrictions legislation are the most cruel steps you can take. Your kind will do nothing but prolong the suffering of your fellow Americans most affected by this disaster. In fact, your selfishness may cause unnecessary deaths.
Price controls cost lives!
Note that Ayn Rand doesn't define libertarian thinking. She's a particularly rabid example. One can be libertarian and a devout Jew or Christian, for example. Such a person would believe that he has a personal obligation to help others, but that others do not have the right to take from him by force (including the government). This is in fact scriptural: the same God that said, "open your hands wide to the poor", also said, "thou shalt not steal", and indeed, "thou shalt not want anything that belongs to thy neighbor."
In fact, your selfishness may cause unnecessary deaths.
I most respectfully request that you go screw yourself to a wall. The discussion is over. Live with it.
and you see what happens when you try to shake the 'compassionate' from their bizarre reality - they go on attack and call you names and worse.
Real compassionate human beings there, eh?
You have it at the essence - market pricing and increases during shortages cause people evaluate how much of a product they truly need. "Do I need to top off my tank today or should I wait in case the price goes down" or "do I really need 15 gallons or can I get by with 5 gallons for now?"
Instead, with price controls, those choices never have to be made, and it becomes a mad dash for underpriced goods. People who don't really need something buy it because they can, and those who really need it often get left without.
But he, your'e an evil capitalist if you understand how market forces and human behavior interact. You should stick your head in the sand and sing kumbaya!
but that others do not have the right to take from him by force (including the government). This is in fact scriptural: the same God that said, "open your hands wide to the poor", also said, "thou shalt not steal", and indeed, "thou shalt not want anything that belongs to thy neighbor."
You biblically make my point. "The shalt not steal" applies directly to price gougers who steal from those that are vulnerable in times of crisis. "Thou shalt not want anything that belongs to thy neighbor", which includes the money your neighbor has earned that is being stolen by shyster price gougers, durimg dire circumstances, because they can get away with it. "Open your hands to the poor" means you don't become a price gouger in the first place and help your fellow man out, not try to screw him out of his money when he least can afford to be screwed. And lastly, "others do not have the right to take from him by force", such as in the forced coercion of preying upon others trapped by circumstances beyond their control, to steal their money by price gouging. All force is not defined as physical; one can force verbally and by circumstance also.
I don't find much in Libertarianism, in particular of the Ayn Rand variety, that has the milk of human kindness as the basis for their belief system. That's why, in spite of certain libertarian aspects that I myself have, a certain "laissez-faire" (leave me alone to live my life) attitude, it doesn't extend to the point that I would ever want to screw over my fellow man in a time of need, and price gouging is exactly that, and I think you know it. That's what I think.
Sorry for re-engaging the conversation. You're clearly in the grip of emotional forces strong enough to overpower any sense of reason.
Sorry for re-engaging the conversation. You're clearly in the grip of emotional forces strong enough to overpower any sense of reason.
I find it interesting that you think the lack of any emotion is a good thing. How in heaven were you raised? You claim you can be a good Jew/Christian, and yet justify price gouging of your fellow man. Does not compute. I'll stay with my reason and emotion combo, and you stay with your reason and money and market forces trumps all opinion. I like mine better, thank you, and I believe your belief system is in deficit. Each to their own.
In this case, I merely claim that hysteria is a bad thing.
You claim you can be a good Jew/Christian...
If I really claimed that, I assume you would know whether it was a good Jew or a good Christian that I was claiming to be.
and yet justify price gouging of your fellow man.
Actually, you're begging the question: am I justifying price gouging? The first order of business is to prove that it exists. If you consider any price increase to be "gouging", then we're off to a bad start: you would be saying, then, that we must crank all prices back to their lowest point in the past 100 years, say. If you make the at least semi-reasonable claim that some increases are legit, and some are "gouging", then we need to discuss how we tell the difference. Currently, the way you tell the difference is to consult your somewhat hysterical emotions, and decide how the price makes you feel.
Each to their own.
I suppose. The sad thing is, your way is likely to be implemented by politicians, and it will kill people. But at least you'll feel better.
"The discussion is over. Live with it."
As long as you feel better while needless deaths occur.
Fact: Fuel prices were held artificially low for fear of prosecution.
Fact: There is not enough fuel in the disaster area to run all the equipment available to save lives.
See the connection?
Your emotional well being is now considered more important than the market natural ability to reallocate resources to the greatest needs. Your emotional well being is now considered more important than the physical well being of those affected by the lack of resources. That is pure selfishness. Your selfishness is prolonging other's suffering.
Which is more evil? The capitalist or the emotionalist? Which has caused more suffering?
Are you a gas station owner? My guess is that you aren't. I used to manage one and it was a COD business. Many other threads have had the same information from FReepers much more familiar with the industry than either of us. However, if you are a gas station owner, then I'll listen to your experience.
All I did was use emotions to counter their emotions. Just an absurd example to show how quickly our society would devolve if it were run using emotions instead of natural market reactions. They came thru quite nicely.
Are you talking about independents or franchises?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.