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Gas prices and price gouging
News from Pensacola | September 1, 2005 | "Blueberry12"

Posted on 09/01/2005 9:12:07 AM PDT by blueberry12

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To: onja
There was a Roman named Crassus used a fire department and profited off disasters. He'd go and offer to buy a burning building. The longer it burned the less he'd pay. When the owner finally agreed he'd put out the fire.

Crassus was not a "fireman" as we understand it: he wasn't working for the government, and he was under no obligation to put out fires. There was no such thing as a "fire department" in his day. His fire brigade was a strictly private venture that he organized at his own expense. If instead of starting a fire brigade he stayed home drinking, the burning houses would have burned down and been worth nothing. Instead he compensated the owner for the house. The owner lost a house that he would have lost anyway, and gained money he would not have had otherwise. Is the homeowner better off with money and no house, or no house and no money? Apparently, the homeowner decided that the former was the better deal.

Note that nothing prevented rival real-estate tycoons from starting rival fire brigades, in which case two "firemen" would arrive at the fire and start a bidding war over the burning house. Or, alternately, nothing stopped the people from forming a volunteer fire brigade that put out fires for free, or for a negotiated fee, or for a set fee.

So from his unique business idea he doesn't sound very likable, but what exactly was the immoral part of what he did? Would it have been better if he'd simply stayed home? Would it have been moral to force him to start a fire brigade that doesn't charge, against his will? If so, what other instances of slavery are you in favor of?

Similarly, suppose I decide to buy burned houses in cases that the homeowner lacked fire insurance. I would not offer much money, but for someone who can't afford to rebuild, some money and no house is better than no money and no house. But for that service, I would probably be called a "vulture" or some such mean name. People would condemn it as "crass". If the homeowner preferred having his burned-out house and no money, he'd be free to say "no".

221 posted on 09/01/2005 6:45:31 PM PDT by Shalom Israel (Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.)
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To: Shalom Israel
If the homeowner preferred having his burned-out house and no money, he'd be free to say "no".

I am amazed at how much you have to fight with conservatives, not democrats but CONSERVATIVES! I thought conservatives were supposed to be capitalists. I am shocked... :-(

222 posted on 09/01/2005 6:48:56 PM PDT by blueberry12
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To: nevergore
The gas companies are any thing but.....their behavior is strictly opportunistic and in my opinion, immoral....legal but immoral....

You want to tell companies how much profits they can make? People should not try to force others to receive less profits than what they desire. For example, what you are saying is this: When the NASDAQ went up to 5000, people should not have sold at the top. They should have taken lower prices and sold lower simply because "it's the moral thing to do." Listen, in the business world, there are no free gifts. If you own a stock that is 102 dollars right now, you would be an idiot to sell it at 94 dollars per share. Right? Let me put it this way: Gas companies are not idiots.

223 posted on 09/01/2005 6:56:43 PM PDT by blueberry12
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To: Shalom Israel
The market is not driven by what gas companies are asking for the gas. The market is always driven by bidders, that is, how much money customers are willing to pay for gas.

So, if customers are willing to pay $10/gallon, then the real price of gas IS $10/gallon regardless of what the government or state law says.

224 posted on 09/01/2005 7:00:28 PM PDT by blueberry12
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To: Shalom Israel

First, I was just giving an interseting (I thought) example of quazi-extortion/capitalism.

And, second, what's wrong with gas companies raising prices? Gas is not a right. If they want to charge 10 dollars they should be able to. We are capitalist. It's not moral, but still I don't see why we should regulate the private sector.

But it might just be that we have a different view. Each to his own.


225 posted on 09/01/2005 7:01:25 PM PDT by onja ("The government of England is a limited mockery." (France is a complete mockery.)
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To: GregoTX

"Price gouging not a dirty business? I see it as dirty as the looters."

There isn't any such thing as price gouging, any business is entitled to whatever they can extract from you for a product. If you don't like the price, don't buy it or go to another source that is cheaper if you can find one.

The only reason anyone is in business is to make money, they aren't charities and don't owe you a thing.


226 posted on 09/01/2005 7:14:01 PM PDT by dalereed
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To: onja
And, second, what's wrong with gas companies raising prices? Gas is not a right. If they want to charge 10 dollars they should be able to. We are capitalist. It's not moral, but still I don't see why we should regulate the private sector.

I agree: what's wrong with it? But I disagree also: what exactly is so immoral about it?

227 posted on 09/01/2005 7:20:01 PM PDT by Shalom Israel (Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.)
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To: Shalom Israel

Sorry. My apologies. Geuss I misunderstood your message.

I geuss they're not being immoral; just taking advantage of a bad situation. Not that that's bad. That's what capitalism is. They're just not being overly kind which is expected in business.


228 posted on 09/01/2005 8:01:39 PM PDT by onja ("The government of England is a limited mockery." (France is a complete mockery.)
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To: nevergore

Yes his example was to the extreme, but I have seen many people use absurdity to prove a valid point. I'm still waiting for you to provide examples of businesses that have been opened in NO the last couple of days.


229 posted on 09/02/2005 4:52:34 AM PDT by CSM ( If the government has taken your money, it has fulfilled its Social Security promises. (dufekin))
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To: blueberry12; Shalom Israel

"I am amazed at how much you have to fight with conservatives, not democrats but CONSERVATIVES! I thought conservatives were supposed to be capitalists. I am shocked... :-("

I was discussing this last night with some folks and amazingly the democrats in the group were much more open to learning about economics and market forces than the republicans. After just a few minutes the dems were trying to explain it to the repubs. I was quite taken aback by this situation. Finally I just chalked it up to Repubs no longer being conservative!


230 posted on 09/02/2005 5:09:46 AM PDT by CSM ( If the government has taken your money, it has fulfilled its Social Security promises. (dufekin))
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To: CSM

I'm still waiting for you to explain why you think I need to provide examples when I've never referenced any business in NO.....

NeverGore :^)


231 posted on 09/02/2005 5:22:26 AM PDT by nevergore (“It could be that the purpose of my life is simply to serve as a warning to others.”)
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To: EagleUSA
Sorry but I don't agree. Greed is greed. Call it what you wish -- or analyze it to death. The bottom line is the same. There is no reason for crude prices as they are, other than greed and opportunity.


There is no reason for gold to sell at the price it does ... or
diamonds ...
or most of the little plastic dodads at Wally world ..
price is set in the market.

If I can get x dollars for my product then thats what I sell it for.
If I can't get x, but I want to sell, then I drop the price.

Where did all the free-market capitalists go?

If we abandon the only economic principles that work, we will really be in a pickle.
232 posted on 09/02/2005 5:29:29 AM PDT by THEUPMAN (#### comment deleted by moderator)
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To: nevergore

I am asking that question of you because you mocked Wide's example. By mocking that example, you are stating that the difficulties he described were not valid. As a result, then there should be some examples of new businesses opening up in NO.

I'm asking you to provide the examples, or to admit that the situation makes it to prohibitive to opening any business, including an ice delivery business.


233 posted on 09/02/2005 5:49:03 AM PDT by CSM ( If the government has taken your money, it has fulfilled its Social Security promises. (dufekin))
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To: CSM

As stated before....

Trucking ice to NO is not a business, it's an opportunity...there is a difference....

Opening a business in NO has absolutely no relevance to trucking in a container of ice....

Even you admitted his BP was absurd....If you are trying to make a point, you're not doing a very good job...

NeverGore :^)


234 posted on 09/02/2005 6:36:00 AM PDT by nevergore (“It could be that the purpose of my life is simply to serve as a warning to others.”)
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To: nevergore

If the ice is sold, the opportunity becomes a business. You challenged him to sell ice in NO.

Due to the semantics issues you have with the question, I'll be more specific. How many other people are taking the "opportunity" to sell ice in NO?

The point is that you are implying that it would be easy for anyone to truck ice to NO and sell it. If it is so easy, can you cite an example? Or could it not be so easy after all?


235 posted on 09/02/2005 6:40:27 AM PDT by CSM ( If the government has taken your money, it has fulfilled its Social Security promises. (dufekin))
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To: CSM

I never implied it would be easy to transport it there....you're making assumption...

I did state that you could make good money selling it at $100/bag....even with logistics issues....

I also pointed out that he would be arrested at best or at worst, hijacked....

It's obvious you are trying to articulate a point but for whatever reason are unwilling or unable.....

Until you are clear on exactly what that is I will no longer respond....

NeverGore :^)


236 posted on 09/02/2005 6:52:42 AM PDT by nevergore (“It could be that the purpose of my life is simply to serve as a warning to others.”)
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To: Shalom Israel

Alright Shalom Isreal....you're last post was basically an argument with yourself and hypothetical (albeit non-existent) positions that I would take.....

You're doing such a good job of arguing with yourself are you sure you want me to interject?

NeverGore :^)


237 posted on 09/02/2005 7:56:35 AM PDT by nevergore (“It could be that the purpose of my life is simply to serve as a warning to others.”)
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To: blueberry12

I've already stated what I believe would be a moral (and voluntary) guideline for oil companies or any commodity producer during a national crisis....

Review my earlier posts and get back to me.....

NeverGore :^)


238 posted on 09/02/2005 7:59:38 AM PDT by nevergore (“It could be that the purpose of my life is simply to serve as a warning to others.”)
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To: nevergore
You're doing such a good job of arguing with yourself are you sure you want me to interject?

Feel free to explain how the correct price of gas is computed, and exactly what the "ethical" distribution method is for scarce resources.

239 posted on 09/02/2005 8:00:30 AM PDT by Shalom Israel (Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.)
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To: Shalom Israel

I already did in earlier post....

Ya' just too lazy to read?

Cause I know I'm too lazy to re-type...

NeverGore :


240 posted on 09/02/2005 8:04:14 AM PDT by nevergore (“It could be that the purpose of my life is simply to serve as a warning to others.”)
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