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The Human Wave
Science News Magazine ^ | 8-11-2005 | Bruce Bower

Posted on 08/11/2005 6:12:55 PM PDT by blam

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To: shuckmaster

Erecti also had different size pelvises.


61 posted on 08/12/2005 7:47:14 AM PDT by curiosity
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To: shuckmaster

Maybe.


62 posted on 08/12/2005 9:32:57 AM PDT by curiosity
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To: shuckmaster

Here's the another problem I see. Erectus females did not have a large enough pelvis to give birth to a sapiens baby. So if sapiens males mated with erectus females, it seems neither the mother nor baby could have survive childbirth.


63 posted on 08/12/2005 9:44:10 AM PDT by curiosity
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To: curiosity
The traits which persisted from Peking Man (a collection of a couple of dozen partial skeletons over a couple hundred thousand years) to modern Mongoloids include at least shovel-shaped incisors, anterior cheek bones, and Inca bones. These are called line traits.

Have to have some genetic continuity to explain their retention. These traits persisted while the local population changed from H. erectus to H. sapiens.

64 posted on 08/12/2005 10:05:02 AM PDT by Coyoteman (Is this a good tagline?)
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To: Coyoteman
A link to Java Man?

Minatogawa People (An Asian Neanderthal?)

65 posted on 08/12/2005 10:32:58 AM PDT by blam
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To: blam
Sixty-five posts and not one crank has shown up to object that God created man out of dust 6,000 years ago, and that the whole article is a Satanic lie.

Maybe the tide on FR is finally turning? ;)

66 posted on 08/12/2005 10:37:58 AM PDT by Mr. Jeeves ("Those who do not industrialize become hewers of wood and haulers of water." -- Alexander Hamilton)
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To: Coyoteman
Have to have some genetic continuity to explain their retention. These traits persisted while the local population changed from H. erectus to H. sapiens.

Not necessarily. It is possible those traits were brought over from Africa twice: the first time when erectus left, the second time when asian sapiens left. It seems the only way to resolve the two competing hypotheses is to determine whether those traits existed in Africa prior the erectus migration.

67 posted on 08/12/2005 10:49:51 AM PDT by curiosity
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To: curiosity
Have to have some genetic continuity to explain their retention. These traits persisted while the local population changed from H. erectus to H. sapiens.

Not necessarily. It is possible those traits were brought over from Africa twice: the first time when erectus left, the second time when asian sapiens left. It seems the only way to resolve the two competing hypotheses is to determine whether those traits existed in Africa prior the erectus migration.

As far as I can remember, those traits are pretty much unique to the Asian side of things, and more north than south in Asia. I don't remember any place in Africa or anywhere else where these three traits are combined like this. Occasionally you find shovel-shaped incisors elsewhere, but always in extremely small percentages (Lapps, I think have something like 3%, if memory serves).

These Mongoloid traits are not the same mix as in SE Asia, where the Ainu and their relatives originated, probably leading to Kennewick Man and the early coastal migration in the Americas. Your thoughts?

68 posted on 08/12/2005 11:04:47 AM PDT by Coyoteman (Is this a good tagline?)
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To: Coyoteman
"As far as I can remember, those traits are pretty much unique to the Asian side of things, and more north than south in Asia. I don't remember any place in Africa or anywhere else where these three traits are combined like this."

The appearance of the African Bushmen (San Bushmen) has always puzzled me, they have some Asian looking features.(Also, Nelson Mandella). I'm curious about their teeth.

69 posted on 08/12/2005 11:10:28 AM PDT by blam
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To: Coyoteman
It all depends on whether the traits originated in African erectus. The proportions in Africa did not necessarily have to be high due to the founder effect. So long as they existed in African erectus in some non-negligible proportion, then I think the double-migration model is more plausible.

Is there a resident paleoanthropologist at FR who can enlighten us as to this question?

70 posted on 08/12/2005 11:18:34 AM PDT by curiosity
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To: Coyoteman
This article:

http://www.control.com.au/bi2003/articles247/feat_247.shtml

claims that the shovel incisor feature of Peking man was in fact present in all erectus populations. Thus I don't think Peking feature bolsters the multiregional and/or diffusion theories.

The article also brings up the fact that the only place where intermediates between erectus and sapiens existed is in Africa. That would also seem strike a blow against the theories in question.

Also, if there were widespread miscegenation between sapiens and erectus, we should being finding hybrid fossils. To my knowledge, none exists.

71 posted on 08/12/2005 11:32:56 AM PDT by curiosity
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To: FastCoyote
[ PEDERASTY, pedagogy, it's all the same to me. ]

LoL..

72 posted on 08/12/2005 12:13:02 PM PDT by hosepipe (This Propaganda has been edited to include not a small amount of Hyperbole..)
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To: curiosity
This article:

http://www.control.com.au/bi2003/articles247/feat_247.shtml

claims that the shovel incisor feature of Peking man was in fact present in all erectus populations. Thus I don't think Peking feature bolsters the multiregional and/or diffusion theories.

I found the problem. The main group of non-Asian H. erectus with clear shovel-shaped incisors were all found since I finished grad school!

Thanks for the tip. Now I have to rethink a few things. But that's OK, being an evolutionist means its all theory anyway, according to some posters to this site.

73 posted on 08/12/2005 12:42:06 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Is this a good tagline?)
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To: blam

I bought three National Geographic kits, gave one to my husband, one to my mother, and one is for my father.

So far only my husband's results are done - he's haplogroup R1b (m343), which is western Europe, 90% plus of the male population in western Ireland, Portugal and western Spain have this haplogroup.

Googling around, the neat thing is that all the new DNA research, including National Geographic, is being generated incredibly fast now that these tests are relatively cheap and easy.

All will become known soon. Patience.

Well, except for any groups that died out without leaving genes in the living population. Those will remain a mystery until and unless their remains are processed for mDNA.


74 posted on 08/12/2005 1:42:22 PM PDT by CobaltBlue (Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.)
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To: CobaltBlue
"Googling around, the neat thing is that all the new DNA research, including National Geographic, is being generated incredibly fast now that these tests are relatively cheap and easy."

There's a down side.

I read a report the other day that that said one in twenty five children (In the UK) are being raised by men who think they are their children but aren't.

75 posted on 08/12/2005 2:26:20 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam

The only way to know is for both the father and the son to take the test. It has become remarkably cheap and easy.

I represented a man who, after many years, got himself and his daughter tested using one of the informal tests, not the kind that are admissible in court. Actually, his new wife was the one who got it done. (Isn't it always?)

They were able to persuade Virginia Child Support Enforcement to relieve him of the duty going forward, but under Virginia law, nobody can wipe out the arrearages, because he signed an Acknowledgement of Paternity form.

I had another case where the mother got the test done during a custody trial, because the second to youngest was conceived during an affair.

But since the husband's name was on the birth certificate, I argued that she couldn't come into court and change things, only he could, and he didn't want to. Said the boy was as much his as the ones where he was also the biological father.

He wound up getting custody of all six kids, too.

Families! This is why Oprah and Jerry Springer stay in business. There are so many variations in the human condition.


76 posted on 08/12/2005 3:21:45 PM PDT by CobaltBlue (Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.)
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To: Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit
"Isn't this a bit contradictory. Isn't a species defined as a genetically distinct group outside of which its members are unable to breed?

There seems to be a desire in some to use the word 'unable' when the working definition more properly uses the word 'don't' or 'doesn't'. Whether the gene flow is blocked because of an inability to breed or lack of desire or opportunity to breed the essential point is that genes are no longer passed from one population to another.

This gene flow is why the teacup poodle and the great dane are still considered one species and there is some question about ring species being considered separate species or just subspecies. As long as there is possible gene flow from one terminus species to the other terminus species they are usually classed as different subspecies.

All it takes to create separate species in the dog line, or greenish warblers for instance is to drive some of the intermediate species to extinction so that the gene flow is blocked. Another way of blocking gene flow is found in allopatric speciation where physical separation of two populations occur. Sympatric speciation can occur when two populations share a location but for one reason or another do not interbreed even if interbreeding is possible.

As mentioned by others, in real life speciation is a continuum. It is only in human taxonomy that speciation is discrete.

77 posted on 08/12/2005 6:55:44 PM PDT by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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