Parents sue St. Luke's over unwanted medical treatment

KTVB News ^ | Tuesday, August 9, 2005 | Associated Press

[christynsoldier]

I don't think I'd agree... my daughter went into an emergency room with 105* temp at age 4 and after treating her for an hour, my wife called me in and said the doctor wanted to do the spinal to rule out meningitis! I took my wife out of the room and told her OVER MY DEAD BODY! This is called practicing defensive medicine on your fat insurance coverage... no tap, got her out of the hosp ASAP and monitored her vitals for two days, and she completely recovered. No thought on the dr.'s part of the trauma and discomfort of the procedure etc... YOU are in charge of your children's care and it's your responsibility to step up and keep unnecessary intrusive stuff away from your kids!
Good luck next time you step into a facility where you don't know the history, background or competance of politically correct med school grads...

[kx9088]

Also, the point I was going to make about meningitis. Her neuro said she may have viral meningitis, which can be tested for via a spinal tap but that would make her migraine worse and only confirm she has it, they can't treat viral meningitis.

If it had been bacterial meningitis, she would've already been dead by that point.

[Polybius]

5 to 10% is not a very focused number either though.

That depends on how serious the consequences of the disease could be.

In the 1920s, 77 of 78 children at Boston Children's Hospital who had Haemophilus influenzae meningitis died. The prognosis for untreated pneumococcal meningitis was equally bleak: of 300 patients, all died. In the first decade of the 20th century, untreated meningococcal meningitis was associated with a mortality rate of 75 to 80 percent.

[msrngtp2002]

Perhaps the bigger picture has been missed here...

I have never met a doctor that appeared to know more about my body than me. Similarly I never met one that know more about my kid than me.

Medical doctors are not all-knowing, always right, so when the state decided to interfere, they assumed that the doctor, being a "Medical Doctor" after all - was all knowing and always right and the parent was just some stupid clod.

The State has NO RIGHT of interference without a court order that must require the violation of some law. If the law is written such that a Doctor can make this call then the law is clearly wrong and should be removed from the books.

Irregardless of the ending diagnosis the Doctor, believing that he/she is all-knowing, convinced the state that the parents were "neglecting" their child. Hogwash. At the same time the cops were involved dozens of kids in that city were being beaten, starved, molested or neglected FOR REAL - but the system chooses the easy mark to make it's case.

I have been victimized by one of these systems when my ex-spouse anonymously called some hotline and reported that I was "neglecting" my teen-age kids. This was the easy mark and for 6 months the clowns would show up at school, my house, my work and other times to question my kids to see if they were being cared for. At the same time dozens of kids were really being molested but they kept returning them to the parents.

These child protection laws need to be revamped and the agencies involved removed from the immunity that the law provides. They need to be accountable and held to a high standard of proof before they meddle.

Just my thoughts.

[vrwc0915]

Why is it that doctors do not realize what consent means?
How dare a peasant patient question a doctor, you would almost think that the Doctor was being payed by the patient to perform a service! I mean no offense to the doctors that respect their patients or their guardian's wishes, refusing a test that carries significant risk is a whole lot different than a parent refusing CPR for a child

[johniegrad]

I have children and I am a physician. Why this has any bearing on your response is beyond me however.

[Sabatier]

Who takes their kid to the hospital for a cold? If the kid had the sniffles better off to stay home. If Mom thought it was something more serious and the doctor did, too, it's not surprising he would order tests. There must be more to this story.

[Brilliant]

So in your case, they did not call the cops. And they should not have in this case, either.

Of course, if your kid died of meningitis, there'd be no one to blame but yourself, and that is precisely what the doctor is trying to accomplish.

I can't see any reason to call the cops unless you already know the kid has meningitis, and the parents simply aren't allowing treatment. In that case, I can see it. There are some parents who are simply derelict.

[vrwc0915]

I am not trying to single you out however you wrote
"A five week old may not develop the signs of a stiff neck, headache, light sensitivity that older patients may demonstrated or be able to tell you about. Often they are only sick looking, irritable, and have a fever. The spinal tap was probably indicated in this infant and carries very little risk. It's odd that the family didn't consent. I don't think that the circumstances justified the subsequent actions however."
leads me to believe that you have no problem with tests being done without the consent of the parents, if I misintrtperated you response I apologize. You are a MD, would you have a problem if you kids were removed from you if you refused medical treatment on your children that you did not feel was necessary?

[rumrunner]

The complaint can be found here.

http://www.cir-usa.org/legal_docs/mueller_v_idaho_amcplt.pdf

Mom has a degree in chemical engineering. The family had the flue before. She wanted to delay any spinal tap to see if it was the flue. The Nazis said no, and off went her kid to get tapped while she was physically restrained by the cops.

[untrained skeptic]

"Five to ten percent is not slim odds."

I agree, not with a life at stake.

This is a difficult subject. The doctor felt it was serious enough to call the police knowing that there would be a lot of upset people before it was all over, and like isn't surprised about the lawsuit.

He likely put the child's life before his own career. Was he right to do so? I don't know. Was it the proper thing for child protective services to step in and authorize the tests that the parent refused? That's another touchy subject.

I have a hard time blaming the doctor or the hospital, they did what they felt was best for the child. It sounds like the police merely did their jobs.

It also sounds like child protective services did what they are supposed to do, which is to look after the interests of the child.

At the same time it's a horrible intrusion by the government into the lives of this family and the rights of a parent.

I doubt that a jury will award the parents with much if anything because others took actions to protect a child.

[VA is for Freepers]

Parents have the right to get a second opinion and take their child to another hospital/doctor. I am sure they weren't just going to take their daughter home and watch her suffer... they seemed proactive and would have taken her to a different facility for a second opinion... they were not given that opportunity in this case.

[rumrunner]

she only had the "flu", unless she was santa claus...

[johniegrad]

If you reread my post, you will see that I thought the lumbar puncture was indicated and justifiable. However, I also indicated that I don't think the circumstances justified the subsequent actions. I would have approached the mother by telling her that I thought the LP should be done and left her with the option. If I thought that there was a substantial risk of meningitis and the mother refused the exam, I would have had her sign the child out of the emergency room "against medical advice".

[stylin19a]

What we don't know is:
Was the child in immediate danger or distress ?
(I'm guessing neither)
Did she have a cold or meningitis ?
(I'm guessing NOT meningitis)

One contracted doctor's opinion shouldn't be the be-all end-all.
An independent second opinion should certainly have been warranted.

[Polybius]

....the point I was going to make about meningitis. Her neuro said she may have viral meningitis, which can be tested for via a spinal tap but that would make her migraine worse and only confirm she has it, they can't treat viral meningitis.

If it had been bacterial meningitis, she would've already been dead by that point.

That information is not only absolutely false but, if it were actually belived by anyone reading your post on the Internet, could end up killing a child some day.

The purpose of a spinal tap is PRECISELY to identify bacterial meningitis so that it can be treated in a timely manner.

Untrested bacterial meningitis has a mortality rate of between 75% and 100%.

What is the treatment for bacterial meningitis?......... Early diagnosis and treatment are very important. If symptoms occur, the patient should see a doctor right away. Bacterial meningitis can be treated with a number of effective antibiotics. It is important, however, that treatment be started early.

How is it treated?......... Take your child to the doctor immediately if she has symptoms. ..... The doctor may take a "spinal tap." It takes a sample of the fluid around the brain and spinal cord. ..... The test can usually tell the doctor if the meningitis is caused by a virus or bacteria. ..... Bacterial meningitis needs to be treated right away...... It can be treated with antibiotics.

[Sabatier]

Migraines are the worst pain imaginable.
A nurse recommended trying an ice pack on
the back of the neck for the muscle tension.
It really does help. And avoiding MSG, natural
flavors, and hydrolyzed soy protein - all
flavor enhancers that are added to many foods.

[vrwc0915]

Thank You,
For respecting patients rights! I apologize for misinterpreting your post

[nickcarraway]

Wow, twisted arm can be painful.

[johniegrad]

A second opinion would have been an option in this case but if it was afterhours, they may have had to go to another emergency room. Boise is large enough that they could probably have found another ER to get that opinion. There are situations where that is not the case also. It sounds like it wasn't a good situation between the doc and the family. They might even have been able to get the second opinion right there at St. Luke's if they had wanted it.