Biblical Scroll Found in Desert

Guardian (U.K.) ^ | Saturday July 16, 2005

[Buggman]

It is a fact that the book of Mormon does not have the archaeological back drop of the Torah. No one is disputing that (that I know of) but that neither makes it False, or True, Does it?

What it makes it is a book that lacks any credibility. If the Book of Mormon makes a claim that a certain people built cities in a certain area, and we find that there were no cities and no evidence of that people in that area or any other area, and more credible historical counter-claims, then that strongly suggests that the Book of Mormon is untrue. If it is untrue, then it cannot be of God. Agreed?

[DelphiUser]

>>What it makes it is a book that lacks any credibility.
>>If the Book of Mormon makes a claim that a certain people
>>built cities in a certain area, and we find that there
>>were no cities and no evidence of that people in that area
>>or any other area, and more credible historical counter-claims,
>>then that strongly suggests that the Book of Mormon is
>>untrue. If it is untrue, then it cannot be of God. Agreed?

No, I do not agree with your twist of facts.

Where is this location that has no cities where they are claimed? The Americas are replete with ruins of cities and no one knows where the builders went. Archaeological evidence of high technology here in the Americas exists that has never been explained by anything besides the Book of Mormon.

So, If there are the remains of cities here, does that make the Book of Mormon true?

How much do you really know about the Book of Mormon? How can you speak with credibly about a book you have not read (An assumption because you have not said you have, and your statements about it do not have the depth of one who has). You simply insist that it “Ain’t so because I ain’t seen it before.”

[DelphiUser]

My apologies for a hurried response as I have a meeting to go to (Be back later though)

>>a believer knows the Bible is the Word of God because of the witness of the Holy Spirit (foreign to Mormon theology)

The Holy Spirit is a base part of Mormon Theology See Articles of Faith #1. Get your facts straight, or ask one of us before you embarrass your self.

FYI Holy Ghost = Holy Spirit as they were used interchangeably in the 1800’s

1 WE believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion• (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisaical glory.

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.


JOSEPH SMITH.

This is what Mormon's believe, "Anyone who tells you differently is selling something"

Delphiuser

[XR7]

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

So, is the Bible translated correctly?
Is the Book of Mormon translated correctly (why not the same disclaimer for the BOM as the Bible)?
If the BOM contradicts the Bible, which one is correct?

[carumba]

Moroni has them, as far as I know. Two thirds of the plates are sealed and will be revealed at a later time.

[carumba]

Back to the Book of Mormon we go. Study it then look up Moroni 10:4

[XR7]

Been there.
Done that.
It contradicts biblical doctrine.

A question for you:

Since only the Prophet Joseph Smith and his successors can speak for God (Doctrine and Covenants 21:4-5 and 43:3-4), can a non-Mormon do so? Can you?

[FatherofFive]

“Does the analogy of Animals and yes even people having offspring like unto themselves not make sense to you?”

No, it doesn’t. This implies change, and I believe in an unchanging God. I still do not follow how this squares with Moroni 8:18: “he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.” You seem to have to parse eternity to make this work. Gods having offspring seems more like the pagan Roman and Greek religions.

“Since we believe we were created spiritually before the world was created corporally we also believe we existed for an unspecified but long period of time with god before we were born.”

So, you existed as a spirit before being born. Was this spirit state like an angel? Any consciousness? It seems that you go from a higher level existence as a spirit to a lower one as a human, only to evolve back to spirit. Where in Mormon documents is this belief found? I’ve not heard this one before.

“Is it harder to believe that God just has always been, than that this process has always been?”

The process you describe is infinitely more difficult for me to believe. A being able to evolve to the point of having the power to create new universes in other dimensions?


“Don't ask me who the first God was, I don't know and don't need to”

But I really think you do. This implies there was no first Creator, which is contrary to Scripture. “I AM” never existed.

Again, I truly appreciate your answers. Understanding comes from an open and frank dialogue.

[DelphiUser]

>>So, is the Bible translated correctly?

The Bible is so easily mistranslated that there are hundreds of churches all claiming they have the correct translation.

>>Is the Book of Mormon translated correctly (why not the
>> same disclaimer for the BOM as the Bible)?

The Book of Mormon does not suffer from this problem.

>>If the BOM contradicts the Bible, which one is correct?

The book of Mormon does not contradict the Bible; you only perceive that it does because you interpret the bible incorrectly.
(When parallel lines cross, which is straight? Answer, Stop crossing your eyes)

>>Been there.
>>Done that.
>>It contradicts biblical doctrine.

One word --> WHERE?

>>Since only the Prophet Joseph Smith and his successors
>>can speak for God (Doctrine and Covenants 21:4-5 and
>> 43:3-4), can a non-Mormon do so? Can you?
That depends entirely on the circumstances. Is X = Y? or to quote Tuvok "Your question is so vague it is difficult to answer it."
I can receive revelation for my family, and for myself, and for any calling I accept from the church.
My bishop can receive revelation for my ward (Which includes me). The prophet can receive revelation for the whole church (Which includes me). Of course non-Mormons can receives revelation, how do you think they know to join the church? They are not however entitled to receive revelation for the church any more than I am entitled to receive revelation for you.

>>This implies change, and I believe in an unchanging God.
So, when is the last time you followed a prophet, received a new book of scripture? or even had "New knowledge" revealed to you (Since that is the pattern through out the bible, after Christ left, new knowledge came through John the beloved, etc) The knowledge may be new to YOU, but not to God who had it all the time.

We seem to be locked in a circle of Accusation, and Refutation, and while I have answers, you really do not seem to want them.

So I am going to witness to you (You do know what that is don't you?)

I testify to you that I know the Church of Jesus Christ is TRUE. Jesus Christ lives, he died on the Cross for my sins (which are more than I wish) and through him I have a hope of salvation. It is my fervent wish for all to come to the knowledge that I have, but like Jerusalem to Christ "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" -- Matt23:37

Be well and may you find the peace of Christ in your life.
May you stop attacking fellow Christians just because you don't understand them.
In the name of Jesus Christ, My Savior Amen.

Feel free to ask me any honest questions you may have, but the mental "Chinese finger traps", like Philosophical debates over my existence begin to pale...

[DelphiUser]

>>This implies change, and I believe in an unchanging God

Good, from Our perspective he does not change, but is not his glory ever expanding? Is not his power extending? Is not his mercy being extended? (I for one hope so :-)

Did god change when Christ came to the earth? (Not fair I know, Sorry) but God must change in order to act, an unchanging god is one who cannot act to save us from ourselves, or give us scripture. God is not Dead!

>> Was this spirit state like an angel? Any consciousness

We existed in a spirit state that had consciousness, and made choices (How art thou fallen o son of the morning…) Satan made some wrong choices and is stuck as a spirit forever.

>>seems that you go from a higher level existence as a
>>spirit to a lower one as a human, only to evolve back
>>to spirit.

You must be mistaking me for someone who believes the Nicene Creed :-)

Mormons believe that Christ’s resurrection was permanent (IE no more death, a perfected and immortal body) We believe that you must possess an immortal, Perfected body like Christ’s or God’s to reach the highest state. God did not change if Christ really is his son (as the scriptures say), and Christ was sent here to be our Savior. I know this sounds like heresy to some (I have all but been accused of that on this very thread :-) but it is scriptural.

I am not asking you to change your beliefs, just understand why I believe what I believe.

See the Articles of Faith in Post #124

>>I don't know and don't need to. But I really think you do

I don’t think I could understand the genealogy, and I will know in time if I need to.

>> which is contrary to Scripture. “I AM” never existed

I AM is God the father Acting through Jesus Christ, Look at it this way: St John 1 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.
So the word is Christ who is with God because he was the first born of the Father. God appointed Christ to head up all his works, thus making Christ god to all those works. (I hope that did not hurt too much, you don’t have to believe it to see how we see it and understand that we use the same Bible but get a different meaning out of it.)
2. The same was in the beginning with God. (see, no need to imagine one being out of two)
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (Again no change to the scripture, but a different interpretation if you go with the first scripture as I put it.)

I could keep going, but the key is in the God Head (See Article of Faith #1) Mormons do not Believe in the Nicene Creed. This is the start of “Heresy” calls by many and trying to tie us in knots over semantics they believe they have caught us in. It’s just another interpretation.

This turned out to be a little longer than I had anticipated :-), and I am sure others will misconstrue some of the things I have said here.

I only hope I have helped you understand us.

[DelphiUser]

OK, nobody has responded in a while, ping me if ya want me...

[Getsmart64]

namely the promise in Moroni 10:4

That passage always sounded like self-hypnosis to me...

[Auntie Dem]

somewhere in a cave in the desert some old beduoins are laughing their *sses off while their Mexican employees sit at rows of tables cranking out little ancient looking scrolls.

Their motto: Se habla Hebrew

[Auntie Dem]

In theory, Jesus Christ (and therefore, the Bible) might be true, or Mormonism might be true.

You don't know Chritianity.

You know what passes for Christianity.

[mad_as_he$$]

What the DVC isn't true!!!

[Auntie Dem]

What it makes it is a book that lacks any credibility.

There are literally hundreds, perhaps thousands of Mesoamerican artifiacts/discoveries that were mentioned in the Book of Mormon long before any modern archaeologist uncovered them.

For brevity I will mention only two.

Steala 29 at Uaxchoctun (sp?) near Tikal is a carving depicting the victory of a Mayan king originally known as Curl Snout, over a fully-bearded Mayan noble, Originally unnamed, in a battle in January, 380 A.D. The victorious Curl Snout sacrificed this bearded noble and his wife and children and buried them under one of the temples of Tikal.

The Book of Mormon mentions a series of battles beginning approximatley 300 A.D., and specifically mentions 380 A.D., where the "Lamanites" (enemies of the "Nephites") defeated their armies in one city after another. The Lamanites enraged the Nephites by sacrificing their women and children to the Lamanites' "idol gods" in their temples. The Nephite general, Mormon (of whom the Book of Mormon is named) records that he wrote a letter to the Lamanite king by the name of Aaron. Aaron hardly sounds very Mayan does it?

The name of Curl Snout has, after a lapse of some 1,700 years been at last phonetically rendered as "Yash Nun Ayiin", as close to Aaron as one can come (IMHO). The name of the fully-bearded (Mayans did not have beards) noble has been determined to be Great Jaguar Paw, or Chan Balam. I would say Chan Balam is a cognate of Sh-Balom, or Shibalon, a known name from the Book of Mormon. WE have the correct timing, the sacrifice and burial of the family, and the names--too much for coincidence.

The second item refers to a geneaology recorded on the sarcophogus of the well known Mayan King Pacal the Great from Palenque. He died about 900 A.D. (clearly after the end of the Book of Mormon time frame which ended in 421 A.D.) Pacal traces his kingship back through Mayan history by naming various kings, one of those ancestral kings was known by the name of "Kish" and was king about 900 B.C.

The Book of Mormon includes a brief history of a people known as the "Jaredites" who came to the americas at the time of the Tower of Babel. IMHO the Jaredites are the Olmecs. The Book of Mormon includes a geneology of the leaders of the Jaredites and includes the name of one "Kish", who coincidently, if you count back the generations from the last known time frame in the Book of Mormon, lived about 900 B.C.! The exact name, the exact time. Too much to be a coincidence.

Have a nice day!

[XR7]

It is almost laughable how Satan will deceive normally intelligent people to believe outright fantasies as truth, and then listen to them go through rhetorical acrobatics to try to convince others that the nonsense they believe has any basis in fact. No credible archeologist or historian, even those at BYU, can justify what you have written with straight face.

[Auntie Dem]

It is almost laughable how Satan will deceive normally intelligent people

How true--but it is you who are deceived. So you can now speak for all archeaologists, including those at BYU?

Address the items I mentioned directly--come up with some alternate explanation that fits your apostate version of Christianity better.

[Auntie Dem]

Here's a link to a drawing of the stela I mentioned:

http://209.208.125.210/uploads/schele/hires/05/_tn_IMG0013.jpg

If that link works look at the drawing yourself. Of course, you'll have to do a little reading to understand the story behind the drawing. Try Linda Schele's book "Forest of Kings" for starters. (BTW she was not a Mormon)

Another good place to go is www.tikalpark.com