After 111 Years, Postage Stamps Go Private Bureau of Engraving Prints Its Last Rolls

Am I on the money???

Missed by a mile. There is abuse and there is union abuse. Then there is abuse and government abuse. The king of them all is the combination of government abuse with union abuse. Those guys at GPO went way overboard. Thanks for exposing your ignorance though. I will feel free to ignore you in the future.

It is a union practice requiring more employees than necessary to do the job.

Unions don't dictate how many employees are required to do a job...That's a management decision...

It is usually done through work rules that state how many hours an employee can work and/or how many finished goods he is required to produce in a given time.

Work rules stating how many hours an employee can work are a matter of state and federal law...Has nothing to do with unions...Employees (union or not) never determine the work rate of a job...It is done thru time studies and similar procedures and is a sole function of management...

It is just adding union members to an employers payroll for the luxury and benefit of the union.

Again, Union leaders never go to the employer and tell the employer how many employees are going to be hired...Strictly a management decision...

Union bashing is alright in my book, as long as you're honest about it...I'd say it's the same ole thing...Some of you people can't stand the thought of blue collar workers earning a decent wage...

And if you don't respond to this post, I'm gonna cry all night long...

You are too easy so I guess I can't ignore this.

Whether it is an actual part of the contract or not unions determine how many employees are on the job by how much work each member does and it is definitely in the contract as to the kind of work a member can do. I am not theorizing about this as I have had too much personal experience with it.

If a member goes much beyond a leisurely pace a union steward will tell him to slow down, he is making the others look bad. The end result is the employer must hire more employees, union members, in order to get the work out the door. That is universal.

I have had to wait many hours for a union electrician to come turn a machine on or off when I or anyone else could have easily pushed the switch. Then ten minutes later when the same thing needs doing the electrician is gone and I wait 2 or 3 hours more for him to come back. It is easy for a one hour job to become a two day job.

I saw an entire construction site shut down, large chemical plant being constructed, over a union complaint that one of my guys had criticized a welder. All the welder had to do was weld a screen around the circumference of a 10' diameter vessel. Takes 2 or 3 hours at the most, even for a slow welder. This guy would weld awhile then use his torch to cut the screen and then he would weld back the cut he had just made. After the third day of our waiting for him to do a two hour job one of my guys casually said, "I don't know about this welder." The welder complained and the union shut the whole job down for three days at a cost to the company building it of about $325,000/day.

I have seen sites where each truck that moved on the site had to have a teamster in it whether he was driving it or not. That was part of the contract. I have seen union welders who could not start their own machines but had to have another union member to start and stop them as needed, usually once in the morning to start and once at shift change to stop. The man who started and stopped the machines would otherwise just stand there all day. Once I saw one pick up a broom to sweep the steel shavings off the concrete floor because they were cutting the welders knees. The union steward told him to put the broom down, they would assign a union laborer to do that job. So they had a laborer standing around most of the day, another union member just starting and stopping the machines, and three or four welders actually doing some work, but not at a very fast pace. That is featherbedding.
That was a nuclear power plant being built in California so you know how long ago that was and construction didn't start until after several years of lawsuits by the greenies. That is what CA rate payers are paying for.
I could recite many more war stories I have personally witnessed and I have friends and relatives that are union members that readily admit this goes on, with a sort of embarrassed chuckle.

Your comment that some of us just don't want blue collar people to make money smacks of class warfare and is similar to racism. Many, if not most, freepers are blue collar workers and very few of us are rich, just like the general population. Sounds like you think because many of us are Republicans we are rich and, as such, look down our noses at others.

In that paragraph you also insinuate that some union bashers are liars, and I suppose you directed that at me. Class warfare and name calling is a debating trait of the left, generally. Does that shoe fit?

I repeat, thanks for exposing you lack of knowledge.

You are too easy so I guess I can't ignore this.

Whether it is an actual part of the contract or not unions determine how many employees are on the job by how much work each member does

Nonsense...The union screed is and always has been 'a day's work for a day's pay'...There are good and bad in both union and non union...In both cases, the lazy don't find much work...

and it is definitely in the contract as to the kind of work a member can do.

Of course it is...Unlike non union construction outfits, a smart person doesn't want a Pipefitter installing high voltage electricity...And since most rotating machinery failure is due to misalignment, you certainly do not want a Boilermaker installing and aligning machinery, which is the work of Millwrights...

I am not theorizing about this as I have had too much personal experience with it.

As I have as well...

If a member goes much beyond a leisurely pace a union steward will tell him to slow down, he is making the others look bad.

More nonsense...In industrial facilities, as I said, there are time studies and such and if the employees do not perform, they are gone...If management lied, or was mistaken, the employee would be brought back...

In a construction environment, pretty much the same...The Contractor determines what happens when...Employees are removed from the job when they under perform...UNLESS, there is a shortage of skilled labor and the Contractor feels he is better of with a less than mediocre employee than none at all...

This This scenario may happen amongst employees whether union or non union, but a steward will lose his job as a steward and an employee if this was to happen...

The end result is the employer must hire more employees, union members, in order to get the work out the door. That is universal.

Yea, that is a universal crock...

I have had to wait many hours for a union electrician to come turn a machine on or off when I or anyone else could have easily pushed the switch. Then ten minutes later when the same thing needs doing the electrician is gone and I wait 2 or 3 hours more for him to come back. It is easy for a one hour job to become a two day job.

99 times out of 100, there's far more to it than that...First, there's a liability issue...Then, if the control power is 480 volts compared to 24 volts dc, you could find yourself in for a fatally shocking surprise if there is something wrong with the machine that your untrained self may not know about...

I saw an entire construction site shut down, large chemical plant being constructed, over a union complaint that one of my guys had criticized a welder. All the welder had to do was weld a screen around the circumference of a 10' diameter vessel. Takes 2 or 3 hours at the most, even for a slow welder. This guy would weld awhile then use his torch to cut the screen and then he would weld back the cut he had just made. After the third day of our waiting for him to do a two hour job one of my guys casually said, "I don't know about this welder." The welder complained and the union shut the whole job down for three days at a cost to the company building it of about $325,000/day.

A little far fetched...I'll bet there's a lot more to it than that...Of course you know that the union is liable for the cost of the shutdown...Ya think the Union Hall would have sanctioned a walkout for such a trivial matter??? The union going to pay a million buck because a welder was insulted???

I have seen sites where each truck that moved on the site had to have a teamster in it whether he was driving it or not. That was part of the contract.

And this one's a nuclear power plant...Then, with your infinite wisdom and knowledge, YOU KNOW that union employees were MANDATED by the Federal Gov't...You know that, don't you???

I have seen union welders who could not start their own machines but had to have another union member to start and stop them as needed, usually once in the morning to start and once at shift change to stop. The man who started and stopped the machines would otherwise just stand there all day.

Only on larger jobs...Reason??? These people that start the welders also maintain the welders and keep them filled with fuel...AND, they make much less money than the welders...Anything clickin' yet???

Once I saw one pick up a broom to sweep the steel shavings off the concrete floor because they were cutting the welders knees.

We've all seen some things, Once...

The union steward told him to put the broom down, they would assign a union laborer to do that job. So they had a laborer standing around most of the day, another union member just starting and stopping the machines, and

You obviously haven't figured out that laborers cost a lot less than skilled tradesman...You don't have a welder sweep the floor when he could be welding, especially when he's getting paid to weld...And if people were standing around, that's up to the Contractor, isn't it...

three or four welders actually doing some work, but not at a very fast pace.

So you're a 'fast' welder??? Steel welding rods melt only so fast...

That is featherbedding.

Sure it is...

That was a nuclear power plant being built in California so you know how long ago that was and construction didn't start until after several years of lawsuits by the greenies. That is what CA rate payers are paying for.

I could recite many more war stories I have personally witnessed and I have friends and relatives that are union members that readily admit this goes on, with a sort of embarrassed chuckle.

Your comment that some of us just don't want blue collar people to make money smacks of class warfare and is similar to racism. Many, if not most, freepers are blue collar workers and very few of us are rich, just like the general population. Sounds like you think because many of us are Republicans we are rich and, as such, look down our noses at others.

Class warfare is NOTHING like racism...Your hyperbole won't work...

In that paragraph you also insinuate that some union bashers are liars, and I suppose you directed that at me. Class warfare and name calling is a debating trait of the left, generally. Does that shoe fit?

I repeat, thanks for exposing you lack of knowledge.

Sure thing...

It is obvious that you are knowledgeable and that I was wrong about that. However, we may be looking at the same elephant from different perspectives.

My personal experiences are from 20 to 30 years ago so maybe with rapidly declining membership some unions have changed. I am certain that no time and motion studies were done then to determine labor output, or if they were they were honored only in the breach.

The chemical plant construction site that was shut down was just outside Augusta, Ga. I think it was a Ciba-Geigi plant. There may have been other grievances I am unaware of but the situation with the welder was what took the blame. That was in the late '70's.

The situation with the electrician was at the Mississippi Power and Light Company, Vicksburg Power Station. We were doing routine maintenance on a water treatment system. The control panel was working fine and only needed to be turned on or off as we completed particular maintenance cycles, some taking only 20 to 30 minutes. Once we were able to get an electrician, at about 11:00 AM on a job that was supposed to start at 7:00 and had been scheduled months in advance, he simply walked up, turned the system off by pushing a button, and then he left. 30 to 40 minutes later we needed the system turned back on and it took about three hours to locate him again. By then it was near shift change time so we had to start the process over with another electrician.

I can understand having a qualified electrician to wire high voltage and expensive controls but this was simply pushing on/off buttons on a panel that had been there for several years. Our technician often supervised the construction and installation of those systems and was probably as good an electrician as the union man but he wasn't even allowed to push the button. Again, the Mississippi rate payers paid for those unnecessary expenses. That was in the late '70's or early '80's.

I was walking through a manufacturing plant in Dayton, Ohio, with the plant manager. As we passed an automated milling machine the union operator was sitting there in a dirty, torn T-shirt reading the paper, smoking a cigarette, and drinking coffee. As we passed he shouted to the manager, "Hey, Bob! When am I going to get a raise?" I had a potential customer with me whom I had brought from Dallas for a plant tour. Needless to say, that didn't help.

A rumor got started that that plant was going to be closed, it was a very old plant, and the jobs eliminated. Although it wasn't true it became a self-fulfilling prophecy. Due to work slow downs and parts that didn't reach quality standards, two years later the plant was closed. It was then discovered that the millions of dollars of parts inventory had been purposely mismade and had to be scrapped. That was in the early '70's.

A close friend of mine worked on the assembly line of the General Dynamics Plant in Ft. Worth. I think it is now owned by Lockheed. After two years he quit a good paying job because he wasn't allowed to work at his normal pace. He was always being told to slow down, he was making others look bad. He felt like he was stealoing the company;s time and money so he quit. That was in the middle '80's.

The situation with the California nuclear plant construction occurred when I was visiting with my favorite uncle. He was a long time, loyal Teamster. We had a system being constructed on the same site and I was able to visit with him often. I was chatting with him when the deal with the welders occurred. He had a lot of seniority with the Teamsters and he rarely knew what his job was going to be when he should up for work. He was making top dollar and they were just finding work for him to do each day. Sometimes he just rode in a truck all day. He did not drive it but was just a passenger. The day I mentioned he was operating the welding machines. We had quite a few conversations about the union and he agreed with all I said. However, he was still a loyal Teamster and retired on a Teamsters pension.

In the years I sold capital equipment and large systems it was not uncommon to be involved in time and motion studies, or using the standards set by others, doing tax amortization and depreciation analyses, and other economic justifications. Sometimes the economic advantages were negated by union rules. I made a proposal to Ohio Edison for one of their power plants on the Ohio River. They were buying water from the nearest municipal district for $1.25 per thousand gallons. I showed them that by adding my system to clean the water from the river, they were already taking water from there for other purposes so the pipes and pumps were already in place, they could "make" their own water for $.85 per thousand gallons. Since they were using about five million gallons a day that added up to quite a bit over time. They didn't need to add any manpower as it was an automated system. The decision was finally made by the union operator, of all things. Despite the fact that he wouldn't have to do much with our system, all he had to do with the municipal system was to turn a valve on and off. He preferred, that and rather than risking labor unrest, they stayed with what they had. The rate payers paid for it. That was in the middle '80's.

There are more war stories but this is indicative of my experience. Perhaps unions have changed since then, I certainly hope so, so maybe your experience is different than mine.

As far as racism and class warfare, what is racism if it is not class warfare? If one race (class) mistreats another for that reason, isn't that class warfare. The race baitors and poverty pimps, as the Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson calls them, keep the pot boiling for the specific purpose of class warfare, dividing our society according to the racial strata. That is no different than the Democrats harping on rich versus poor, heterosexuals versus homosexuals, women versus men, etc. They create class warfare, it doesn't naturally occur, and they do it for political purposes.

I won't end with my normal slur this time. I have seen the light. :-).

State laws require whoever does electrical work do so under a person or contractor who owns a 'Master's' license...Some companies will have a 'Master' Electrician or an Electrical Engineer with the necessary license for liability reasons...Perhaps in your situation, no licensed person was on the premises and one had to be called in...

If so, the person called in possibly had to leave another job to come to your place to do the work...Certainly not the fault of any union for the time loss...

As far as the Dayton plant, I can take you to a factory right now, non union, where the operator of a machine sits and reads the paper, smokes and listens to the radio...
One of the necessary evils of employment...When that mill stops, the operator is right there to switch parts so there is minimal downtime because the money is in the highly machined part...Again, it's not only not the unions fault, I'm sure the company requires the employee to stay at the machine at all times...As far as being a slob, that also falls under the company's jurisdiction...

As far as that plant being shut down, I've also been in plants that were short on future...Generally, the objective is to fulfill current contracts with customers as cheaply as possible...
If the employees were lackluster in their performance, I'd guess they got the ok from management...Seems they shouldn't have had millions in inventory, unless their shipping department was laid off...

I have a brother-in-law, works for General Dynamics in Ohio...Mechanical Engineer...One thing I know is that Defense Contractors in particular, have contracts for X number of parts weekly, or monthly...Maybe your guy was getting to far ahead of the system and causing bottlenecks in the flow of material...

A place in my area that makes tank engines for the Abrahms tank...Multiple assembly lines...Newer guys have to work their hind ends off...The old timer work hard too...They get their quota in about 6 hours and goof off for 2...Every day...And the old timers get angry when the new ones slow them down... Engines end up on a dynamometer...Can do only so many per day...Company's happy, the contract is met...The gov't is happy as well...

As far as the Teamster...Contractors determine in the initial bid how many employees of each craft they will need...And this is what they are paid on...Customer doesn't care how many employees are there...Customer doesn't care much about anything except that the contractor does the agreed to work...

Contractor knows who is doing what and who is doing nothing...If there's a loss, it's the contractor's, not the customer...
Likely the truck driver is called upon when needed...Apparently, it was more cost effective for the contractor to have an idle drive on stand by that it would have been to locate one when needed...Certainly not the union's fault...

Ohio Edison: Seems so unlikely to me that a union employee can make corporate decisions for a company the size of Ohio Edison...More likely that this employee gave his 'probably valued' input to the people that make decisions...Maybe there were other ramifications involving your system that were negative...

I know you have to get Federal permits when you take water out of a lake or river or you want to increase the volume...Maybe there was something to do with that...Again, certainly nothing to do with the union...Especially since according to you, no more or less employees were involved...And besides, that falls under a 'management rights' clause in every union contract...

Unions and companies have contracts agreed to by BOTH sides...If you research, you will find that 99% of all contract violations are perpetrated by the companies...Unions get the bad rap because they respond to the violations...

And lastly, I disagree...poverty pimps can be any race...

State laws require whoever does electrical work do so under a person or contractor who owns a 'Master's' license...

I assume you didn't read what I said as what I said did not concern "electrical work". We considered all the reasons you gave for the unavailability of the union electrician, asked questions of the company's employees who were there with us, the ones who were actually interested in the system be up and running, and were pretty well assured that what you suggest was not the case. We were left to form our own opinions about motivation, or lack thereof, and the attitude of the employees waiting with us seemed to coincide with ours. It seemed to us all to be a union power play just to let everyone know who was boss.

We agree about the machine operator having to be there in case the machine stopped or malfunctioned. We don't agree on this and I doubt we will.

As far as being a slob, that also falls under the company's jurisdiction...

Perhaps it does but if you think the company could realistically do something about it without bringing more grief on themselves from the union you are either idealistically naive or the times have truly changed since then.

If the employees were lackluster in their performance, I'd guess they got the ok from management...

I cannot imagine that attitude toward the problem unless you are a bureaucrat who monitors these situations but has no responsibility for them or, once again, naive. Either that or times have truly changed, which I doubt.

Seems they shouldn't have had millions in inventory, unless their shipping department was laid off...

Now I am really beginning to doubt you. The inventory was built for just that, inventory. They didn't sell to distributors, they sold to end users. They also needed to keep inventories in the event of a prolonged union strike. They didn't just build it and ship it, they built it and held it until needed. That is why it was called inventory, Hello!!

One thing I know is that Defense Contractors in particular, have contracts for X number of parts weekly, or monthly...Maybe your guy was getting to far ahead of the system and causing bottlenecks in the flow of material...

Still another indication that either we are not communicating or your frame of reference is so totally different from mine that we can't communicate. This was an assembly line, which I think I said, for fighter planes. Assembly lines do just that, ASSEMBLE. There were no material bottle necks he could cause. He was the one doing the waiting. There was no way for him to shove something down the line to someone else, it stayed with him until the ones behind caught up. (Are sou sure you are not a college professor?) He was admonished for standing around impatiently waiting for others, making them look bad.

Newer guys have to work their hind ends off...The old timer work hard too...They get their quota in about 6 hours and goof off for 2...Every day...And the old timers get angry when the new ones slow them down... Engines end up on a dynamometer...Can do only so many per day...Company's happy, the contract is met...The gov't is happy as well...

You sound as if you think that is a good arrangement. How about no contract and paying the workers according to there value to the company? Workers who are good and can complete a lot of work get paid for it, no standing around for two hours with chests poked out. Workers who are learning work hard to learn so they can produce more and earn more. (I think you are unintentionally proving my point.) If the dynamometer is slowing things down then it is up to management to either get another one or be satisfied with the bottleneck. If the bottleneck means a lot of people standing around, reduce the workforce.

As far as the Teamster...Contractors determine in the initial bid how many employees of each craft they will need...And this is what they are paid on...Customer doesn't care how many employees are there...Customer doesn't care much about anything except that the contractor does the agreed to work...

Sounds like government work again. How about, "Here is what I want done and you figure out how to do it. Before I give you the contract you must convince me you can do it. How many of what you hire is up to you."?

Contractor knows who is doing what and who is doing nothing...If there's a loss, it's the contractor's, not the customer...

Just as I said above without the buyer determining how the job is done, only that the specs are met.

Ohio Edison: Seems so unlikely to me that a union employee can make corporate decisions for a company the size of Ohio Edison...More likely that this employee gave his 'probably valued' input to the people that make decisions...Maybe there were other ramifications involving your system that were negative...

Another indication in my mind of your distance from the factory floor, or what some people call "street wise". The plant foreman and the plant supervisor rose through the ranks and they work there daily with the operators. Strong management would not have allowed the operator to give a thumbs up or thumbs down on such a decision but it was no skin off these guys' noses which way it went. They were going to get paid regardless and suffer no ill consequences. If the operator said no and they went ahead anyway there would have been some conflict resulting. Remember, this is a government run and controlled operation which just passes on the costs to others, not an entrepreneurial operation. If you think those things don't go on daily then you are too far removed from the problem.

I know you have to get Federal permits when you take water out of a lake or river or you want to increase the volume...Maybe there was something to do with that...

Not only that but you have to assure that when you put it back it was much cleaner than when you took it out. In this case all that was considered.

Again, certainly nothing to do with the union...Especially since according to you, no more or less employees were involved

Once again you are calling me a liar and once again you are wrong. It had everything to do with with the union and with the hallowed "blue collared workers" you seem to think are being exploited. They made those decisions for their own convenience, period. It cost them nothing in way of pay, promotion/demotion, loss or gain of stature - it cost them nothing. It did cost the rate payers who bought the electricity.

....And besides, that falls under a 'management rights' clause in every union contract...

Probably so, and marriage vows accompany every marriage, too.

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