Posted on 06/10/2005 11:13:37 AM PDT by Always Right
OK, where do consumers get this 30% more income to spend when prices are raised by the "EviL NRST"™ ?That's the point. They don't get 30% more to spend when prices are raised.
This point is made to tell you why the eliminated tax costs will be squeezed out of prices after the elimination of the income tax, payroll tax, and 90% of compliance costs.
When those costs are eliminated, business will enjoy a much larger profit margin. Hence, they can reduce their prices and still earn the same profit margin.
If one business sees this (and they all see it already), they can gain market share by lowering prices below their competitor's price - and still make the same profit.
How much this can be done depends on exactly the same things as today. - which is why some business is successful and others aren't.
Uh Huh and what happens to that product on the shelves that is thirty percent higher but the consumer does not have a 30% increase in spedning income? (Considering now that Corps will be making higher profits by not paying income taxes and not wasting money on compliance with income taxes.)
No, but as I said, its not acceptable as.....
I'm afraid the meaning of that long sentence eludes me.
Then lets make is bare bones simple.
The common meausure used between tax systems is the tax inclusive measure rejected by opponents of the NRST.
What is it?
Effective tax rates as a percentage of CBO's pre-tax comprehensive household income:
refer:CBO: Historical Effective Federal Tax Rates
For definition of comprehensive income, and usage.
(Considering now that Corps will be making higher profits by not paying income taxes and not wasting money on compliance with income taxes.)I can't answer that for them but maybe you can.
I was looking at a new G.E. refrigerator yesterday, it was made in Mexico. Not long ago I was looking at a John Deere tractor, it was made in Germany. How much U.S.income tax and compliance cost do you think there is built into foreign made products?...Which most products are by the way.
Yes you can, you just don't want to answer it.
Considering now that Corps will be making higher profits by not paying income taxes and not wasting money on compliance with income taxes.)Maybe you could explain how 20 to 30% of the gross (retail) price is tax and compliance when tax is imposed on profit that is 10% or less of the gross.
Yep, time to change the subject! QUick!!!
Hoisted on his own petard as it were... LOL
>>> One thing about the sales tax is used goods are exempt, ...
Really? That's very interesting...
The FairTax legislation taxes all goods and services once but only once by design.
Used goods, are either assumed to be paid under the income/payroll tax system and grandfathered by the legislationl, or have been explicitly by collecting national retail sales tax on new products produced after the implemention date of the bill.
I wonder why he won't tell us the real reason he opposes tax reform. We believe from previous posting history he's been involved with the tax protestors .... hmmmmm
If someone isn't filing now and isn't paying any FICA now, he sure would be opposed to a system that would make him pay his fair share....
Why can't you answer it. Are you being obtuse to avoid the obvious?
Well, nightie, you can do that right now under the Status Quo that you so love ... and many do as the IRS's data hints at in their non-compliance numbers. Nothing to prevent that right now so the situation is really no different now that with the FairTax. There are so many methods of non-compliance and evasion right now that it isn't even funny (maybe that why you're a SQL, eh?).
Just because YOU think you'll be more crooked doesn't mean a thing since most who've been on a few threads with you realize you'll lie through your teeth just to stretch a point and try to make the FairTax look bad in any respect you can.
The base doesn't shrink and the rate doesn't go up (except in your Nightmare dreams). This is merely another of your (and Gale's) attempts to shrink the consumption base by any sort of prevarication or fraud possible.
Won't work.
Another case of nightie trying to divert/digress off of the subject - it's called the "SQL factory red herring" method.
The NIPA personal expenditures numbers (the base for the FairTax) factor in current sales tax evasion/avoidance. The income numbers (the base for the current system) have the current income/payroll tax evasion/avoidance.
Show us where income from sales from illegal trade, evasion activities, underground cash economy are accounted for in the NIPA data. No such activity is reported to be included or even estimated in the NIPA data.
Here's a link to a paper describing what is measured as the value of final goods and services sold in the NIPA GDP and GNP data sets and what is expessly not included (e.g. illegal trade, cash underground, any non-reporting activities, non-production activites.)
| http://spruce.flint.umich.edu/~mjperry/Unit10.html
WHAT COUNTS IN GDP?: 1. Only FINAL goods and services purchased by final users. Only retail sales count, not intermediate (wholesale) goods or transactions. When GM buys steel, tires or transmissions, those transactions don't count because it would be double counting since those expenditures will be accounted for in the final retail price of the car. For example, suppose GM spends $15,000 for a car and sells it to a dealer for $16,000 and the dealer sells it for $17,000. We only count the $17,000 for the final retail sale. We can't count $15,000 + 16,000 + 17,000 = $48,000. Only the value of the final output is counted, and the value of the inputs are not directly counted since their value is reflected in the final purchase price. See Example, page 158. Bread example. 2. Only goods and services produced during the time period are counted. Only new production is counted, not secondhand sales. Example: sales of used cars and used houses don't count. They were already counted as new production in the year built. Resale doesn't get counted in current GDP. Commissions on used cars or houses would get counted, because they are current services. 3. Financial transactions and income transfers are excluded. Example: stock or bond purchase is just a transfer of money from one individual to another, it does not involve current production of a good or service. Commissions would count, as a current service (income) provided by the broker. Gifts and income transfers (Social Security, welfare, veterans' pmts, etc.) also don't count, since no current production of goods or services is involved. 4. ONLY Domestic Production is Counted, regardless of who provided the labor. Foreign citizens working in the U.S. count toward U.S. GDP, since their labor contributed to "domestic production." U.S. citizens working temporarily overseas does NOT count in U.S. GDP, since their labor does not contribute to "domestic production." GDP vs. GNP - GDP measures domestic production within the 50 states, regardless of who provided the labor or capital, US citizens or foreigners. GNP measures the production of US "nationals," U.S. citizens regardless of where they are working. *** SNIP *** PROBLEMS WITH GDP - 1. Nonmarket production - Nonmarket production is excluded from GDP because there is no way to accurately measure it. Only actual "market transactions" get counted in GDP. Nonmarket production includes household production like fixing your own car, repairing, fixing, painting your house, working on your garden, growing your own food, cooking, the work of a housewife/househusband, etc. Estimated to be 10-15% of GDP, or about $1T/year. *** SNIP ***
2. Underground economy - could also easily be another $1T, or 10-15% of GDP from prostitution, drug trafficking, gambling, smuggling, illegal gun sales, tax evasion, etc. Also unreported cash income from cash business - taxi drivers, waiters/waitresses, bars, craftspeople, carnivals, fleas markets, illegal immigrants, etc. |
Here's a hyper link to the NIPA user guide describing the tables and how data is collected and entered.
PDF: NIPA User Guide
Show us where any illegal income, evasion activity or cash economy activites or income are estimated and incorporated into the NIPA data series.
Here is a hyperlink to the NIPA keyword index of what is included and where in the tables each item can be found:
Show us any data entry what ever providing an estimate of underground cash economy, illegal trade or any trade or income associated with tax evasion which by its very nature is unreported and no accurate way to measure it thus included or in anyway estimated in the NIPA series.
Another case of nightie trying to divert/digress off of the subject - it's called the "SQL factory red herring" method.That might be true except for the fact that I didn't bring up the topic.
They don't. Maybe you misunderstood my post. When I said "The NIPA personal expenditures numbers (the base for the FairTax) factor in current sales tax evasion/avoidance. The income numbers (the base for the current system) have the current income/payroll tax evasion/avoidance." I meant the current NIPA income numbers don't account for income/payroll tax evasion/avoidance.The NIPA personal expenditures numbers (the base for the FairTax) factor in current sales tax evasion/avoidance. The income numbers (the base for the current system) have the current income/payroll tax evasion/avoidance.Show us where income from sales from illegal trade, evasion activities, underground cash economy are accounted for in the NIPA data. No such activity is reported to be included or even estimated in the NIPA data.
Beats me -- we'll have to wait and see.
And HE talks about "ignorance". Nightie is a guy that loves the Nightmare VAT/Nightmare Flat tax. Trouble is, neither is defined at all and both are just ivory-tower theories (which break down in practice) with no detail -- none at all -- behind them.
He even switches from one to the other as the preferred method whevever it suits the particular argument he attempts to present. These also are straight from "The SQL Diversionary Handbook for Looney Liberals".
As an example, on page 112 of that handbook (under the DIVERSIONS chapter), it suggests a technique for this situation which runs soimething like this:
(Nightie) - "Where did I EVER switch from one to the other??? Just show me, moron. Just show me one time. I dare you!!"
A bit further in that chapter, we see suggested: (Nightie) - "Prove to me that the Nightmare Tax breaks down in practice. Give me some hard figures and not just your B/S. Proove it, idiot." (And all this despite a non-existent tax scheme which is detailed nowhere but the REAL ones DO fall apart when used, but you can't give figures on something that doesn't exist such as the Nightmare VAT/Flat).
Those two tactics even work with some people, but not most.
Of course, the NIPA personal income numbers are irrelevant to the FairTax rate.
OTOH of course, the NIPA sales/expenditure side is totally relevant to the FairTax rate which do not include any of the non-reporting income or sales such as are used to evade income and payroll taxes.
You are aware of course that GDP = GDI except for a small statisical discrepency of below 1% of GDP measures.
For only legitimate, reporting sales and income (not under the table deals to evade taxes or avoid law enforcement) are reported to government to even be included in the Product side or the Income side of the GDP/GDI data series.
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