SHAME ON ALL OF YOU!!

AERO-NEWS Network ^ | May 13, 2005 | Kevin R.C. "Hognose" O'Brien

[bvw]

Oh really?

If the plane was a crop duster that's a different story, perhaps. It wasn't. Even then -- a ground vehicle by not being noticed while releasing it's slow-acting agents -- can be much more effective. It can get closer to crowds.

Air releases are not that effective -- the evil Iraqis who sprayed the Kurds had to make many passes -- the stuff blows away from the targets too easily.

The Germans in WWI has similar problems with ground releases -- the wind changes and the chlorine and mustard gases was back on top of them. Proximity and confined spaces are ideals for chemical and biological weapons. Airborne is not the way.

We were secured by folks like you, and still are, eh? Exmine every grandmother up the waz at airports, but keep the borders open. I'm not happy at all that folks with that rare combination of hubris and chicken-little-ism still run too much of domestic security. Bureacratic inertia and grinding procedureal indignities punctuated by knee-jerk panic.

[RobRoy]

"A Cessna 150 waould make a dangerous warplane indeed ."

And so would a Chevy Malibu, and without suspicion until the last ten seconds. and with three times the payload.

Then again, how about a Chevy Suburban?

[MrsEmmaPeel]

A Hugo is NOT going to get close to the WhiteHouse front door. A good pilot can go through the Oval Office window. Who cares if the President was there or not? The symbol would be pretty devastating. One suicide bomber, lots of C4, little plane, Oval Office for the target, boom!

[RobRoy]

I believe it would have been shot down before it got that close. So I am saying that any serious threat would be by something that does not have to get that close, in which case, a yugo - or a suburban if you want to carry more and get a little closer, would be just fine for the job.

BTW, I thought you were HOT when I was in Jr. High!

[Cboldt]

Yeah, but she planned ahead to make it look like she had been kidnapped by purchasing a bus ticket.

???

Purchase of transit is an indication of voluntary travel, not of being kidnapped.

It'll be interesting to read the legal theory used to fine Wilbanks. It took the Wisconsin DA 12 days to bring charges against Seiler. I think the Wilbanks case is weak, and that is why it's taking so long to reach a charge.

[righttackle44]

"In other words, get everyone hyperventilating and running around like idiots over a small airplane, dashing into the subways and tunnels of D.C. and then ...."

By the way. Do the people in charge call this a plan of some kind, this running and hyperventilating?

It looked like a Godzilla drill.

[dirtboy]

Purchase of transit is an indication of voluntary travel, not of being kidnapped.

The comment was made in the context of her suddenly deciding to leave. But when someone goes on a bus trip, they also usually take keys and a wallet and other such things. She didn't.

[MrsEmmaPeel]

A Cessna can approach the Whitehouse by flying down the street, below the rooftops of most buildings. Its not as good a target for missiles etc as a bigger, faster airplane, or a slower truck or van. At slow speed and low altitude heat-seeking missiles would be more likely to take out a UPS truck than a Cessna. (A UPS truck put out more heat than a Cessna). A slow low flying aircraft with a good pilot has a better change of evading a missile because he can make rapid turns. (small radius)

Thanks for the Hottie comment! LOL! Don't underestimate the threat of a Cessna. Terrorists will use the tools that they have available to their biggest advantage and they will probe our weeknesses to learn how to use them even more effectively (from their perspective).

[RobRoy]

Oh, I definitely think this plane should have been shot down.

But I don't think the risk is as great as people think. Needless to say, it was proven not to be in this case.

In my building, a few months after 911, someone spilles powdered sugar off a donut onto the carpet. The building was evacuated and fire, police, and hazard waste people were called in. It was beyond stupid.

In fact, the next day there was a memo circulated around the building asking people to please be understanding of the person who called it in.

If I had been standing next to the person when they saw it, I'd have stuck my finger in it and tried a taste.

All that said, the plane should have been shot down. We are at war and some "mistakes" are gonna cost ya.

[Flightdeck]

"Oh really?"

Yes, really.

"Air releases are not that effective -- the evil Iraqis who sprayed the Kurds had to make many passes -- the stuff blows away from the targets too easily."

So let me get this straight, as your example for the ineffectiveness of aerial chemical weapons disbursement, you use one of the largest mass murders with chemical weapons in history. You were talking about common sense...

If you think that a Cessna flying toward the white house 13 miles inside a 16 mile radius no-fly zone poses no danger, then you're a bleeping idiot. Oh, wait, you probably don't like to be on the receiving end of the arrogant name-calling you have peppered this thread with.

[Cboldt]

The comment was made in the context of her suddenly deciding to leave.

You said "planned ahead" in your first comment, not "suddenly deciding."

Anyway, I was just being nitpicky. The sentence (I made my first comment on) didn't make sense. Hence my "???"

I agree that there were indications consistent with involuntary disappearance. There were also indications of planned, voluntary disappearance.

There are lots of disappearance cases. Over 800,000 reported per year. Some funny stories can be found with some simple google searches. A few of the Wilbanks threads have story summaries and links. And now, we return the thread to its intended subject ...

[MrsEmmaPeel]

Hey, I agree that 9/11 put us all in a different mindset. As for shooting the plane down or not -- I give big kudos to the pilots of the F-16s. Do you have any idea how hard it is to fly a fast plane slow? If they overtook the Cessna, the Cessna would have been caught in the F-16 wake turbulence and probably would have lost control and crashed. The F-16 pilots probably had to have full flaps extended, landing gear down -- everything to slow down their plane (while not endangering themselves) to fire their warning flares.

Now, the Cessna pilot had ignored the flares then I think they would be justified in blowing him out of the sky or ramming into him. (Which ever comes first).

[xone]

'A slow low flying aircraft with a good pilot has a better change of evading a missile because he can make rapid turns. (small radius)'

Approach turn stall. If they were going to shootdown the plane, they would likely gun it.

'At slow speed and low altitude heat-seeking missiles would be more likely to take out a UPS truck than a Cessna'

No, the missile would just break lock and go stupid. More likely you would never get tone.

[bvw]

Yes, I do. And anyone who wants or needs to worry about such attacks should look into those mass killings. They were not that effective, but still effective enough to slaughter many. IIRC, the helicopters had to repeat the disperals again and again. Such loitering would NOT occur in DC -- the loitering aircraft would be removed.

And I haven't called any names on this thread. I've described behaviours accurately, and perhaps you have confused such descriptions with name calling. One name only "Beltway whiners", do I admit to. If I missed others, sorry.

[LukeSW]

I’m not a pilot (though I worked on planes—big mothers—for 3 years while in the AF) and likewise, I am not an expert on explosives, though I did see the results of a single 500 lb bomb while in Nam—not very pretty.

Wonder what our genius Luke (who BTW, seems to have disappeared) would have to opine about the [probable] results of a Cessna loaded with 1500 lbs of Semtex traveling at the rate of speed of (oh, say maybe 150 knots in a sharp dive) and impacting a building? Might make for a pretty big bang?

FYI, I have been working this morning. Also, FYI, any single engine Cessna loaded with 1500 pounds of anything could not get off the runway. Much less fly.

On the other hand, folks on this thread are correct that a Cessna 150 loaded with a bio weapon or dirty nuke could cause serious damage. The problem is one of perspective. Much more explosive/biological agents could be carried within throwing distance from the WH and the Capital by any van, pickup truck or SUV. The apparent answer from this thread is that the plane isn't supposed to by there and cars and trucks are. Which is the precise reason why cars and trucks make better attack vehicles and why the errant Cessna was likely not a threat. Moreover, with the F-16 hot on its trail...it was about to be a million little pieces.

[billbears]

Personally I think it was one of most ironic and sadly funny things I have ever seen. All the billions upon billions of dollars wasted on Homeland Security and the War on Some Terror to make us all 'feel' safe and it's brought crashing down by a wandering Cessna. Think we can get that money back to the citizens of the respective states?

[RobRoy]

Maybe they could just down him with turbulence. 8^>

I agree that maybe I was a bit trigger happy on this. Ignored flares would probably most definitely have resulted in a splash.

[MrsEmmaPeel]

What absolutely galls me in all of this, is the fact that 2 pilots (a student and a teacher) appeared to be blissfully unaware of the restricted airspace around Washington DC. The first thing a pilot learns is "where can I fly without anyone hassling me?" -- Washington DC is NOT the place! What were they thinking?

Here's the link re: the actual wording of the restricted airspace over DC. AOPA DC NOTAM

I bet they are pilots no more. If it was all "innocent" then they are too stupid to remain pilots. It could have been more sinister -- they simply could have been on a mission to "test the waters."

[LukeSW]

Had that little plane been packed full of high explosive or a biological warfare agent, would the nitwits who are criticizing the governments reaction to a threat be happier? Had it succeeded in crashing into the Capitol or the White House and killing hundreds of people, the same nitwits would now be complaining about the lax security that allowed it to happen.

Paranoia. Yeah, right. Even after after 3000 people died horrible deaths on Sept. 11, 2001, some FOOLS refuse to take terrorism and our efforts to prevent it seriously.

If this article represents the "views of many of us in the aerospace industry", then SHAME ON ALL OF YOU!!

Mr. Republican...see my comments toward the end of Post 155. Here are a few more thoughts. The lax security problem is that we live in a free society. People drive on the roads, and yes...even right next to the White House. Its not quite as close as once allowed, but it is within throwing distance, and certainly within range for dirty nukes, and bio weapons. Since we live in such a society, and we allow travel to and around national icons, going ape over a tiny little airplane that strays is ridiculous.

Now Mayor Daley wants to bar all small planes from flying over all small cities. Talk about Paranoid. He should first prohibit all cars and trucks driving in Chicago!!

By the way, FOOLS are people who strain at gnats and swallow camels: the Cessna 150 was a prototypical gnat. As for the aerospace industry, most pilots value our right to travel. And some of us are working hard to make air travel feasible for the average person, i.e. personal air travel.

[RobRoy]

I was flying with my brother in his Cessna Citation on our way to Cabo and the lcd screen in the instrument panel showed the boundaries of these areas extremely clearly. Coupled to gps and a picture of our plane over the map there is no way we could encroach more than a few feet into the no-fly areas unless we suddenly went blind. the autopilot was even programmed to go around them.