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Now evolving in biology classes: a testier climate - students question evolution
Christian Science Monitor ^ | May 3, 2005 | G. Jeffrey MacDonald

Posted on 05/03/2005 2:12:35 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife

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To: Tribune7

Haven't read it.


261 posted on 05/03/2005 1:26:23 PM PDT by js1138 (e unum pluribus)
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To: Junior
What mechanism keeps micro evolution from shading over to macro evolution?

Fool! How many times must I answer this question?

Along with the Intelligent Designertm there is the Cosmic Clerktm. It is the Clerk's function to keep track of how many times in the past your ancestral line has undergone mutations. This is a purely mechanical task, because the Clerk merely has to follow the Designer around and keep accurate records. Even your primitive, naturalistic mind should be able to understand.

And when some creature's ancestors have used up their alloted number of mutations, no more are permitted. It's really very simple. Why do you Satanic eeeevooo- loouuu-shunists have so much trouble with this concept? When the designed-in allowance of mutations is used up, that's it. Radiation has no effect. Chemicals in the environment have no effect. Lateral transfers from a virus have no effect. The creature's "kind" is fixed. Forever!

262 posted on 05/03/2005 1:27:32 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (<-- Click on my name. The List-O-Links for evolution threads is at my freeper homepage.)
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To: Junior

"As for your gorilla example, given enough time and the right pressures, a 1500 kg ape might not be out of the question."

And yet, that is only a "might" there isn't even a theory that would account for this. Let alone actual observations.


263 posted on 05/03/2005 1:28:56 PM PDT by MacDorcha (Where Rush dares not tread, there are the Freepers!)
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To: Junior

Well you've described the faith behind macro evolution. That given enough time small changes translate into entire animals evolving from one to other. Sort of an inverse 2nd law of thermodynamics. This is based on sheer speculation and faith and no evidence.

So the proper question is - what is the evidence to support macro evolution? Evolutionists have to prove macro evolution exists. I don't have to disprove it. Your logic is nuts.


264 posted on 05/03/2005 1:29:33 PM PDT by plain talk
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To: Dimensio

Actually, "why" can often be explained in terms of causality; ie, the reason why babies are born is because people keep making them and people keep making them because 1) they want them and 2) the process for making them is quite fun.

Ok then: WHY do people want them? WHY is it fun?




"And where do you go from there?"

You find the reason. Example: "Why do we obey the laws, if disobeying may provide us with an advantage over our fellow man?"

"Because there is a higher drive within/around us (whichever you prefer) that we answer to"


265 posted on 05/03/2005 1:33:03 PM PDT by MacDorcha (Where Rush dares not tread, there are the Freepers!)
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To: From many - one.

The precise boundary means nothing. Sure I understand the speculation about small changes adding up and supposedly given enough time a spec of caterpillar would evolve into fire-breathing dragon in my backyard. Sure, I'm with you.

So I ask you if you have enough faith to accept that amoebas became human beings - then do you have faith that Jesus died on a cross 2,000 years ago and rose from the dead?


266 posted on 05/03/2005 1:33:43 PM PDT by plain talk
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To: PatrickHenry

Fallen sparrows placemark


267 posted on 05/03/2005 1:34:26 PM PDT by dread78645 (Sarcasm tags are for wusses.)
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To: Dimensio

And it relates to the methodology involved in evolution.

Instead of claiming a source (natural selection) which is outside of science (though not disagreeing with scientific findings), leave it open for a motive.(God is also not in disagreeance with findings) Only exaplain the mechanism.


268 posted on 05/03/2005 1:36:54 PM PDT by MacDorcha (Where Rush dares not tread, there are the Freepers!)
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To: narby; doc30
This is off the subject a bit, but. I think that we should increase teachers salaries out of sight. That would attract the aggressive types to the field.

The problem is that school systems mismanage money. In the county I grew up in, the two high schools have about 1,200 students each and are a LITTLE crowded. Rather than just add on to the existing schools, they are going to build a third high school.

This will just increase costs as now there will be three principals and his staff, three cafeteria staffs, three gyms, etc rather than just two. Gross duplication of services.

Larger high schools, like the ones in suburban Atlanta (3,000 students) have the advantage of being able to group students with similar abilities and goals together. Rather than having an advanced calculus class of 30 in which only 10 people should really be there, there is an advanced class of 25 where all of the students are qualified.

Also, schools waste money buying computers and other "teaching aides". If a kid doesn't know the difference between a noun and a verb, does a computer really help?

269 posted on 05/03/2005 1:41:33 PM PDT by JeffAtlanta
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To: plain talk

No faith is needed. Small changes accumulate within a population, selected for by environmental and other pressures. Over time, isolated pockets of a population will accumulate changes not reflected in other populations and because of this will no longer be able to interbreed with those other populations.


270 posted on 05/03/2005 1:44:01 PM PDT by Junior (“Even if you are one-in-a-million, there are still 6,000 others just like you.”)
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To: plain talk
So the proper question is - what is the evidence to support macro evolution? Evolutionists have to prove macro evolution exists.

Not really. You already accept that changes within a population occur. That's evolution. We're simply saying that there is no magic cutoff beyond which no more changes accumulate.

271 posted on 05/03/2005 1:45:33 PM PDT by Junior (“Even if you are one-in-a-million, there are still 6,000 others just like you.”)
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To: MacDorcha
Ok then: WHY do people want them?

This would delve into psychology, including evolutionary psychology (species whose individuals did not have a desire to reproduce would be less likely to continue existing).

WHY is it fun?

Similarly, species for whom the act of producing children was not entirely enjoyable might be less inclined to reproduce.

You find the reason. Example: "Why do we obey the laws, if disobeying may provide us with an advantage over our fellow man?"

"Because there is a higher drive within/around us (whichever you prefer) that we answer to"


Or perhaps it is a risk/reward assessment when considering the possible consequences of being caught breaking the laws. And then there's the issue that people understand what would happen if everyone took the position that laws are an inconvenience, and obedience is more of an implicit agreement made out of self-preservation.

Why assert the existence of some vague "higher authority" when a much more likely reason does not require the invention of any extraneous entities ex nhilo?
272 posted on 05/03/2005 1:47:48 PM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: Dimensio

Similarly, species for whom the act of producing children was not entirely enjoyable might be less inclined to reproduce.

So? Who cares if it's enjoyable or not? If we are bent on surviving as a species, why should "enjoyment" play a part?



"Or perhaps it is a risk/reward assessment when considering the possible consequences of being caught breaking the laws. "

Then why were the laws made in the first place? They are laws of Man after all.




"Why assert the existence of some vague "higher authority" when a much more likely reason does not require the invention of any extraneous entities ex nhilo?"

Because observation shows that everything has a cause. This would include "everything" itself.

Why assert "nothing" when "something" is the precedence?


273 posted on 05/03/2005 1:56:54 PM PDT by MacDorcha (Where Rush dares not tread, there are the Freepers!)
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To: PatrickHenry

Best post award.

Past time for some fun.


274 posted on 05/03/2005 1:56:59 PM PDT by From many - one.
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To: Junior
No faith is needed. Small changes accumulate within a population, selected for by environmental and other pressures. Over time, isolated pockets of a population will accumulate changes not reflected in other populations and because of this will no longer be able to interbreed with those other populations

Yes. I understand. Over time stuff happens. Again, any evidence other than pure faith to depict a rock solid case for one animal avolving into a completely different animal? I'd love to see it. I'm willing to entertain evidence and go where the real science is.

275 posted on 05/03/2005 1:59:10 PM PDT by plain talk
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To: plain talk
Pick up a Scientific American.

Yes. They are politically correct and fully a part of the MSM and support their political interests. They are not the "journal of record" for "science".

But that still doesn't change the fact that a significant number of climatologists (a majority, I believe), the people who actually study the climate, do not think that Global Warming is man caused, which is the issue with Kyoto and the envronmental left.

276 posted on 05/03/2005 2:00:57 PM PDT by narby
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To: plain talk

It doesn't happen overnight. You're basically asking us to prove there is no magic cutoff switch. You can't prove a negative.


277 posted on 05/03/2005 2:02:40 PM PDT by Junior (“Even if you are one-in-a-million, there are still 6,000 others just like you.”)
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To: plain talk
Arguing with an evolutionist is like arguing with a liberal. Little difference between the two intellectually.

Interesting. Since your education is lacking, you revert to name calling.

278 posted on 05/03/2005 2:04:56 PM PDT by RadioAstronomer
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To: plain talk

OK, you are just plain ducking the question.

When it comes to science I have no faith whatsoever. I don't even trust my own observations, nor does any other scientist trust his.

When it comes to my Faith...it is none of your business.

Normally I give a response but not to those who challenge rather than ask. And never to those who consistently refuse to respond to my questions.

You're trying the "my faith is (stronger/better) than yours" game and that's one I don't play.


279 posted on 05/03/2005 2:05:46 PM PDT by From many - one.
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To: plain talk
Yes. I understand. Over time stuff happens.

And your claim that "micro" cannot become "macro" over enough time is a claim that at some point stuff stops happening.

It is up to you to provide an explanation as to why that would happen. Otherwise logic dictates that the changes will continue.

280 posted on 05/03/2005 2:09:35 PM PDT by narby
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