Posted on 05/02/2005 6:18:32 PM PDT by pissant
Forgot one other thing -
2 Thessalonians 3:8, "Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you."
Looks like maybe Paul worked in addition to his ministry, in order to avoid being a burden on the churches. Never noticed that one before either.
"Anyway, that point was, none of the NT letters discussed tithing, or used the word at all in reference to giving, and Jesus only mentioned tithing twice, both times in condemnation of the Pharisees. You'd think they would at least have used the word in context, if it was important pertaining to giving, which they discussed a bunch. And none of the early church fathers did either."
The Jews of the early church probably did still tithe in accordance with the Law. This might not have been mentioned in the epistles because it was a settled issue as far as Jewish life was concerned (Jewish Christians didn't need to hear about it), and wasn't a church issue (Gentiles didn't need to hear about it either, i.e., contributing to the Levites, going up to Jerusalem at certain times for festivals, etc.).
You already made the point that tithes were for worship and celebrations, and for support of the Levites, the poor, and others without means of support. They were partly a tax used for the public good.
Paul was a tent-maker. Don't know the scripture, but I'll look it up.
Acts 18:2-3
Paul went to see them, and because he was a tent-maker as they were, he stayed and worked with them.
Thank you, I knew that, and completely didn't relate it! :)
Good points, thank you.
Sorry to let you down, but she is just like Benny Hinn
Read Malachi 3:8-3:10.......epecially 3:10. I'll save you some hunting; it's the last page of the Old Testament.
It's the only place in the entire Bible where God is literally saying "Try me in this." Challenging God is considered a sin.......yet in this one instance, he LITERALLY says "try me". Good enough for me.
Know what the #1 topic in the Bible is, in terms of number of references, discussions, etc.? By far?? Faith? Redemmption? God's love?
Money.
There's a good reason for it. God knows that where a man puts his money, there his heart lies also.
Sometimes things are deceptively straightforward and simple. It just never ceases to amaze me how man tries to overly complicate God's messages by interjecting his own "wisdom" and "analysis".
Seems to me that's what you're doing by changing the literal meaning of the text. Nothing in Malachi 3&4 (much of which is directed squarely at the Levites themselves) changes the fact that the tithes and offerings discussed there are specifically defined in Deuteronomy as being agricultural, intended for the purpose of having a celebration, as well as food for the Levites, orphans, widows and strangers.
Please explain to me how, using scripture, how OT tithing requirements are to be applied to the churches of today. Are we to offer burnt sacrifices as well?
Of course not. The new covenant fulfills that original system. So please show me how the new covenant requires 10% tithing. And if indeed scripture indicates that we are to take the 10% aspect literally, then why shouldn't the other details (agricultural, brought to a storehouse, etc) be taken literally too?
As agrace said, you should study Malachi, Chapter 3 in its original context. God was dealing with and admonishing His people Israel through the words of the prophet Malachi within the theocratic and economic system He had set up for them. So many pastors preach Old Testament scriptures dealing only with the children of Israel as if they are promises made by God to, and literally applicable to, the church.
Yes, churches will build themselves. Pastors will work as cabbies on the side to make ends meet. Missionaries? Fuhgedaboutit.
Thanks so much for straightening me out on "context", sweetie. I feel refreshingly enlightened. I'll ignore lifelong teachings and many decades of personal experience and God's word, now that you have set me straight.
But the fact is, certain things are/were intended for Israel alone, of which I could cite multiple examples. You could too, no doubt.
With regard to tithing, again, why doesn't our tithing system include bringing our agricultural surplus to a storehouse and having a party with it?
And also again, what tithing guidelines are we given in the NT? You see, the point is, the standard is now HIGHER than in the Old, just as with the rest of the law.
It's just like the sacrificial system - all it did was point to an ultimate fulfillment. The ultimate fulfillment of the tithing system is found in Jesus' instruction on keeping the law, which He made about the heart rather than the outward appearance.
We see that in the only times the NT mentions tithing, when Jesus is reprimanding the Pharisees.
Matthew 23:23-28, "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity."
We are called to give from the heart, which for most people probably means a greater sacrifice than just 10% of our income. We are called to give with sincerity, serve others with selflessness, because Jesus' point was that what goes on in the heart is far more serious than what we actually do outwardly. The same was reiterated by Paul.
A pastor friend of ours puts it like this - he says, "I don't give to get, I give to give." He considers it a privelege to bless others through giving, just as Paul said (and I paraphrase) - everyone as he feels in his heart, not begrudgingly or because he feels he has to, but because he wants to, because God loves a cheerful giver.
No one is suggesting that we shouldn't give, and give abundantly. But it's about the heart. In other words, giving because we feel we have to is a lot different than giving because we want to - the former is worthless in God's eyes. David lends some insight when he is repenting of his sin with Bathsheba -
Psalm 51:15-17, "O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise. For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise."
To add to what you wrote, I believe the Holy Spirit will guide Christians in their giving, and help them to be good and sensible stewards of their money as well.
Ping!
You know what, I think I should apologize. I just realized that's twice now I posted to Rightonline before you responded yourself. Please forgive me for stepping on toes!
No apology necessary. You responded far better than I could have. I agree with you completely about verses for Israel as well as the high standard needed to keep the Law not just in letter but in spirit. If some of the outwardly righteous Jews of Jesus's day couldn't perceive the wickedness of their hearts and their sinful state after He read the riot act to them, I don't know what would have convinced them.
Anyone who tries to convince me that tithing is Old Testament only......that it doesn't apply to us today......that it's useless, etc. etc. is wasting their breath.
Such a person should also find a real church, frankly.
No one said it was useless, and no one is trying to convince you to that end. You're reading things into posts that aren't there. And you have yet to address any points made.
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