Catholics torn by issues: Church, faithful don't agree on many social, moral topics, poll shows

Albany Times-Union ^ | 4/17/05 | ROBERT LOPEZ

[mikrofon]

"I go to work nearly every weekday and describe myself as a faithful employee of my Company. But I also believe in an employee's rights. I think I should be able to sexually harass the gals while on the job. And I have no problem with smoking cigarettes right at my desk.

"The company has somewhat helped me with paying for my lifestyle, I've often said. But I don't always agree with everything they say. I think I have the right to contradict my boss at any time, and that I can just take off whenever I want."

[Capt. Tom]

"I don't believe religion should ... like ... tell us what to do and stuff," she said. "It should be like a whadyacallit ... a smorgasbord ... where you get to pick and choose the things you wanna do and the things you don't. Like killing your babies and stuff like that."

That's called Protestantism, and there are plenty of Protestant churches to accommodate your beliefs or non-beliefs. - Tom

[stands2reason]

That's like saying I'm a "faithful Republican" yet I'm pro-abortion, pro-union and don't think the rich pay their "fair share."

[Republican Wildcat]

Sadly, many only use the Church as a social organization.

[SteveMcKing]

Has anyone asked them why they stay? They have no right to whine. They do have a right to exit the door.

[i_dont_chat]

CINO. Why don't these people, who disagree with the Catholic Church, find a denomination which suits them?

There are plenty to choose from.

[B Knotts]

But she also believes in a woman's reproductive rights.

Go ahead an' reproduce, already! Who's henderin' ye?

[It's me]

"I don't know that you could find any Catholic anywhere who would agree 100 percent with the church," said Michele Dillon, an associate professor of sociology at the University of New Hampshire.

Well, here's one.

I beleive 100% with the teachings of the Catholic Church.

[R. Scott]

There was a lot to go over, and I admit to mostly scanning and saving some for later.
I don’t have a lot of respect for St. Paul, primarily for the Greek philosophy he interjected into a Jewish religion. It appears that he was the main influence for the celibacy rule. Celibacy didn’t become almost mandatory until around the 10th Century, and I see it as a political rather than a religious rule – it helped prevent the Priesthood from becoming a hereditary position.

“The episcopal sees, as we learn from such an authority as Bishop Egbert of Trier, were given as fiefs to rude soldiers, and were treated as property which descended by hereditary right from father to son.”

Again, the subject of inheritance comes up:

“But the whole legal aspect of the celibacy question in England can best be studied in the pages of Lyndewode's "Provinciale". (See particularly pp. 16 sqq. and 126-130, of the standard edition of 1679. The only thing which Lyndewode makes clear, quoted above, is that the English Church in the fifteenth century refused to recognize the existence of any such entity as the priest's "wife". It knew of nothing but concubinae and denied to these any legal right whatever or any claim upon the property of the partner of their guilt.”

The denial of property rights to a Priest’s wife again point to the fear of the Priesthood becoming a hereditary position.

[Proud_texan]

Nor am I a Roman Catholic but I don't think the article describes anything that's unique to the Roman Church or at least older demonimations in which people "grew up" and have generation after generation of affiliation.

While I was a converted Episcopalian my wife had been one from the cradle and it was very, very hard for her to leave when the Church left us. I didn't have the "roots" that she did. Oh, I tried to hang in but it was obvious that ECUSA had gone over to the dark side and I was ready to go. It was much harder for her. Frankly, and don't misunderstand, she's a wonderful person, she was in denial at what her Church had really become.

Or maybe it's just misplaced tribalism. Go figure.

[NYer]

They have no right to whine. They do have a right to exit the door.

They reflect what has been suggested to them by their shepherd and the dissident speakers he invites to give talks in the Albany Diocese. In their minds, the church should 'catch up' with the times. My neighbors, retired and in their early 70s feel that JPII was too conservative and pray that the next pope will be more 'liberal'. Their worst fear is that Cardinal Ratzinger might be named pontiff.

[A.A. Cunningham]

Not being a Catholic, I need some education. I believe that contraception (other than the rhythm “method”, is banned because of God’s commandment to go forth and multiply – but Priests are ordered to be celibate?

* The fecundity of marriage

2366 Fecundity is a gift, an end of marriage, for conjugal love naturally tends to be fruitful. A child does not come from outside as something added on to the mutual love of the spouses, but springs from the very heart of that mutual giving, as its fruit and fulfillment. So the Church, which is "on the side of life,"151 teaches that "it is necessary that each and every marriage act remain ordered per se to the procreation of human life."152 "This particular doctrine, expounded on numerous occasions by the Magisterium, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act."153

2367 Called to give life, spouses share in the creative power and fatherhood of God.154 "Married couples should regard it as their proper mission to transmit human life and to educate their children; they should realize that they are thereby cooperating with the love of God the Creator and are, in a certain sense, its interpreters. They will fulfill this duty with a sense of human and Christian responsibility."155

2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:

When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.156

2369 "By safeguarding both these essential aspects, the unitive and the procreative, the conjugal act preserves in its fullness the sense of true mutual love and its orientation toward man's exalted vocation to parenthood."157

2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, "every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil:159

Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.160

2371 "Let all be convinced that human life and the duty of transmitting it are not limited by the horizons of this life only: their true evaluation and full significance can be understood only in reference to man's eternal destiny."161

2372 The state has a responsibility for its citizens' well-being. In this capacity it is legitimate for it to intervene to orient the demography of the population. This can be done by means of objective and respectful information, but certainly not by authoritarian, coercive measures. The state may not legitimately usurp the initiative of spouses, who have the primary responsibility for the procreation and education of their children.162 In this area, it is not authorized to employ means contrary to the moral law.

The discipline of celibacy is freely chosen by those who seek ordination in the Latin Rite, with the limited exception of the Anglican Dispensation granted to ~700 formerly Protestant ministers who converted to Catholicism as members of the Latin Rite. Said Priests must agree prior to ordination that if their spouse precedes them in death that they will then adopt the discipline of celibacy. 21 of the 22 Churches sui juris that comprise the Catholic Church will ordain married men but once ordained single Priests may not then get married. Same as in the Greek Orthodox Church which also selects its Bishops from the ranks of celibate Priests exclusively. Celibacy of clerics is highly praised in Scripture by none other than Christ Himself as well as St. Paul.

VI. WHO CAN RECEIVE THIS SACRAMENT?

1577 "Only a baptized man (vir) validly receives sacred ordination."66 The Lord Jesus chose men (viri) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry.67 The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ's return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.68

1578 No one has a right to receive the sacrament of Holy Orders. Indeed no one claims this office for himself; he is called to it by God.69 Anyone who thinks he recognizes the signs of God's call to the ordained ministry must humbly submit his desire to the authority of the Church, who has the responsibility and right to call someone to receive orders. Like every grace this sacrament can be received only as an unmerited gift.

1579 All the ordained ministers of the Latin Church, with the exception of permanent deacons, are normally chosen from among men of faith who live a celibate life and who intend to remain celibate "for the sake of the kingdom of heaven."70 Called to consecrate themselves with undivided heart to the Lord and to "the affairs of the Lord,"71 they give themselves entirely to God and to men. Celibacy is a sign of this new life to the service of which the Church's minister is consecrated; accepted with a joyous heart celibacy radiantly proclaims the Reign of God.72

1580 In the Eastern Churches a different discipline has been in force for many centuries: while bishops are chosen solely from among celibates, married men can be ordained as deacons and priests. This practice has long been considered legitimate; these priests exercise a fruitful ministry within their communities.73 Moreover, priestly celibacy is held in great honor in the Eastern Churches and many priests have freely chosen it for the sake of the Kingdom of God. In the East as in the West a man who has already received the sacrament of Holy Orders can no longer marry.

[JimSEA]

Elaine Ranc attends Mass every week and describes herself as a faithful disciple of the Catholic Church.

Does this remind you of all the News Articles that begin . . .

Jane Jones alwas has considered herself a Republican, However G. W. Bush has caused her to rethink . . . "

This is a tried and true journalistic ploy -- the "man on the street ploy" -- which allows the writer to fill the rest of the article with leftist garbage. The Catholic Church is being trashed here by Mr. Lopez who paid attention in his journalism classes when this technique was being promoted -- taught.

[Proud_texan]

Maybe it's pride: "I know better what the Church should believe in"?

I get that a lot and I don't get a good answer at why they don't go elsewhere either.

Or one other thought; maybe it's because some parishes, especially in the US or at least some where I've attended services, are out of step with the historic Roman Catholic Church?

[David]

The fundamental problem the Roman Church faces is that like almost all other denominational organizations, it has added an interpretative gloss to the literal words of the scripture.

In the case of the Roman Church, the gloss is a large body of dictates which are generally not supported by the Word and in at least some cases, fly in the face of the word.

So under those circumstances, it is then difficult to promulgate formal doctrine in support of what the Bible actually says and articulate to members of your organization why their conduct has consequences.

The real Christian need in the world is for assembly with others who believe in God; who read and study the Bible as the received Word of God; and who receive, accept, and practice in their daily lives, the Lordship of Jesus Christ, our Savior, who was crucified for our sins; is risen alive from the dead; and who will return in power and glory.

[A.A. Cunningham]

Celibacy didn’t become almost mandatory until around the 10th Century, and I see it as a political rather than a religious rule – it helped prevent the Priesthood from becoming a hereditary position.

Incorrect. Suggest you begin your study of the history of the discipline of celibacy by reading Canons XXVII and XXXIII of the Council of Elvira, 295-302 AD as well as Matthew 19:12,27-30 and Luke 18:28-30 for starters.

[B Knotts]

The Catholic Church is not a denomination.

[anonymoussierra]

"But she also believes in a woman's reproductive rights. She thinks gays should be able to marry. And she has no problem with using contraception."What is this!!!!G-D is G-D!!!persons do not know what is Sodoma Gomora Pompei itp...G-D help this persons Thank you

[SteveMcKing]

How about we have the rules changed to whatever they feel like at any given moment... Think they'd be satisfied with that?

No, they would still complain.

[R. Scott]

The discipline of celibacy is freely chosen by those who seek ordination in the Latin Rite.

Unfortunately by some too young to comprehend what it really entails. It also may be one of the primary reasons there’s a shortage of Priests.