Posted on 04/12/2005 9:27:39 AM PDT by underlying
and how would YOU know that? and by the way please define "lower castes" for me. i am sure the situation in 1947 was bad and it is much better today. the whole point is that india is progressing and not regressing. like it or not the majority of the population which is HINDU - is pushing the country in that direction.
by the way you seem to have convenient amnesia. i do remember that there were major civil rights violations in the south - which has nothing to do the majority of the people being christian.
in fact i would argue that anglo(christian)-judean values that pushed the south to be a more just and equitable society like it is today.
We started out talking Hinduism, and it seems you've switched to nationalism. I never said all Indians were guilty of these things. You seem to equate being Hindu with being Indian.....
85% of India is Hindu. You are the one attributing social issues to religion. it is like saying a robbery in delhi makes all hindus thieves. /sarcasm
But I still hold the opinion that Hindus are not such a 'peaceful' and 'passive' people as has been claimed.
dont worry some day you will get there..
He who teaches himself has a fool for a master
You should read Durant or Twain. Of course trips to India / China help too.
And he who bows to the opinions of other men just because of fame has jello for a backbone.
"You should read Durant or Twain."
I have. Doesn't mean I bend my views to fit theirs.
"Of course trips to India / China help too."
When was your first trip to each of those countries, and what did you do while there?
Testimony of those who have been there, done that. Reading newspapers, historical information.
"and by the way please define "lower castes" for me."
The ones who are left to die in the gutter because they are paying for 'sins' from a past life.
"i am sure the situation in 1947 was bad and it is much better today."
Of course. That is what I have been saying all along.
"like it or not the majority of the population which is HINDU - is pushing the country in that direction."
Yes, the majority is Hindu. That majority has diminished somewhat in size as time has past and modernization has hit India.
"by the way you seem to have convenient amnesia. i do remember that there were major civil rights violations in the south - which has nothing to do the majority of the people being christian."
Amnesia? What a silly comment. We weren't discussing the south, we were discussing Hinduism.
For some reason, you seem to think that the repulsive actions of some idiots in the U.S. is supposed to change my mind about Hinduism. The poor actions of one group don't excuse the poor actions of another group.
"You are the one attributing social issues to religion"
Of course, because it is the religion that brought about the whole idea of the 'lower caste' to begin with. Good grief, the discussion has been about Hinduism since my first post.
"dont worry some day you will get there."
Your arrogance does nothing to validate your claims. Are you an adherent of Hinduism? I'm just curious if arrogance is a tenet of the faith.
have you been reading pakistani textbooks for your historical information /sarcasm. you have changed your arguments a dozen times. first you claimed that affirmative action in india started 20 years ago..next it was because of the british..third it was because the hindus havent had a choice. whatever...
The ones who are left to die in the gutter because they are paying for 'sins' from a past life.
there you go...pure rhetoric without substance. contrary to belief the hindu caste system was not hierarchial in nature. the exception being the untouchables who were discriminated against by all castes and not treated well. they make up 15% of the indian population.
modern india and modern hinduism are different. while inequities are present - hinduism and india are making efforts to correct these mistakes. and no it isnt because of british or american "economics" that they are doing this. it is genuine change that is prompting hinduism to make these corrections. your hindu bashing will only piss off these people and move them away from the US. if you keep beating up pacifist people they will hit back at ya. nothing wrong with that.
Of course. That is what I have been saying all along....We weren't discussing the south, we were discussing Hinduism.....
good. then you will also acknowledge that the situation in the south is better today than it was in the 60s. next you should draw a parallel between this and india and come to this conlusion
"progressive societies improve over a period of time. they work to remove whatever drawbacks / bigotries hold these societies back.
that is all i am trying to say
Good grief, the discussion has been about Hinduism since my first post.
since you know sooo much about hinduism you could probably tell us more about the religion . i will prefer your sermons to willie durant or mark twain. /sarcasm. anyways not that any hindus would care. did i tell you that they are the most affluent group in the country...does that make you doubly angry...
I'm just curious if arrogance is a tenet of the faith.
nope. is ignorance a tenet of ur faith?? /sarcasm
Blaming Hinduism for Caste discrimination is like blaming Christianity for racial discrimination, slavery, lynching of black people and their brutal dehumanization and colonization of people of color that happened all the way since the beginning of Industrial revolution.
Further, there is not enough affirmative action in US, atleast proportionally speaking, not as much as in India.. the place from where I came from had 80% of jobs, and seats in all professional colleges (Engg, Law and medicine) reserved to lower caste people. In a class of 60 students in my undergrad engg school, there were just 9 seats left in the "open" category, 51 seats were reserved for minorities and women !!
I bet many white folks in this country might be tempted to put back their white robes and hoods on and start lynching N****rs, like they used to do a few decades back, rather than make the kind of sacrifices that upper caste Hindus have made/are making to ensure a tolerant and progressive society. (sarcastic joke ;) )
The only reason why upper caste Hindus are against missionaries, is only because, inspite of all these sacrifices that they made, missionaries still spread false notions about Hinduism and belittle hindus in a condescending way.. first of all, they donot understand the varied philosophies within hinduism to even enter into an appropriate theosophical debate- they just nit pick minor incidents and wrongly attribute them to Hinduism itself (like dowry/caste discrimination, etc), secondly, they are keenly intent on proselytization (probably dictated by their religious beliefs) which lead to significant tension in certain communities. The missionaries seem to be soo presumptuous and arrogant, that it drives ordinary, hardworking tolerant Hindus crazy.
Otherwise, ordinary mainstream christian folks are atleast as patriotic and easy to get along with like their Hindu/Sikh neighbors.. except some fanatical muslims, everyone else is usually cool.
The best comparison of the missionary problem in India is with the way those North Eastern Liberals try to act in a condescending manner toward all church going, hardworking southern people and try to preach them "liberalism" and tell them that they wont be regarded as tolerant enough, unless they endorse their left wing agenda.. put missionaries instead of liberals and upper caste hindus instead of southerners, and you have the exact situation.
What is astonishing is that Hinduism, after fighting Islam successfully for over a millenia, still retains pluralism and an open minded, non-judgemental approach to worship... There are numerous other aspects of its innate sense of tolerance and fairplay, that make it easier for decent people of other faiths (barring Muslims, ofcourse) to co-exist with it.
Forced conversions, anti-India preaching campaigns, anti-Hinduism diatribe and formenting animosity between different races (northeastern Indians are racially different from mainstream Indians, they look like chinese) are just few of the troubles that missionaries are causing in India.
Once again, its not the decent, patriotic christian who does his duty for the country and doesnt insult people of other religions that is the problem.. only those who go out of their way to belittle Hinduism and engage in anti-national activities, that are a big concern.
This is such a crock, I won't bother reading the rest of your post.
You really shouldn't lie about what someone has said on FR. Too easy for people to find you out.
It's clear you cannot handle this discussion without resorting to lies. I don't tolerate such immoral behavior. You are dismissed.
You really shouldn't lie about what someone has said on FR. Too easy for people to find you out.
It's clear you cannot handle this discussion without resorting to lies. I don't tolerate such immoral behavior. You are dismissed.
i am sorry but slavery has nothing to do with christianity. in fact christianity has a lot to do with abolishing slavery. Lincoln as did many abolitionists thought slavery as anti-God. This is a documented fact.
anglo-judean values have only preached equality, and respect for life. for example: the british rule of india was benign as compared to the islamic rule that killed an estimated 100 million hindus.
missionaries still spread false notions about Hinduism and belittle hindus in a condescending way.
there are different kinds of missionaries. mother teresa is an example of the good kind. she loved india and from the pictures i have seen of her - seemed to have made india her home. you should differentiate the good from the bad. there are missionaries (benny hinn..yuck..) that treat christianity like a business.
it is true that hindus are a pacifist and a benign people. i have read willie durant and my personal impression of india is that it is a progressive and tolerant society when left to itself.
I bet many white folks in this country might be tempted to put back their white robes and hoods on and start lynching N****rs..
Some people just want to use history as an excuse. There is enough opportunity for people of all races - men or women in america. Which is why you are here :-)))))))))...
thanks for your kind words. have a nice one...
There is a saying in India : Those who live in glass houses, shouldnt throw stones at others. Think about it.
You seem to think that only you have the right to criticize other religions in a highly abrasive and deprecating manner, while turning a blind eye to your own side's fallacies ?
Isnt it a fact that the southern baptists said they had religious approval for propagating and sustaining the sickening and highly barbaric institution of slavery ??
Isnt it a fact that they split from the mainline Baptist church, solely in order to sustain this inhuman and highly revolting practice of dehumanizing black people ?
Isnt it a fact that they didnt even apologize for their not-too-insignificant role in sustaining this evil abominance till early 1990s ????
Isnt it a fact that racial segregation was sanctioned by many white southern churches, even while Rev. King was fighting against it ?
Just look at American society today, people still are very segregated and usually people of each race stick to one another.. compared to India, where Hindus, Christians and Sikhs get along very well, atleast in Urban society, in US, its hard to find whites, blacks and hispanics get along that well along the same lines even in big cities.
BTW, why is it that wherever there was/is apartheid and racial segregation, there is Christianity... is that a mere coincidence sir ? If christianity indeed is so peaceful and tolerant, why was most of Africa and Latin America colonized by "bible thumping" christians, who later propagated apartheid and racial discrimination in the countries they occupied ?
Well, yes.. while Lincoln and some northerners were against it, most southerners, rallied on by their Baptist church, were endorsing it.
My point is: slavery/racism==caste discrimination. Thats why Hinduism is just as culpable as christianity in this regard.
there are different kinds of missionaries. mother teresa is an example of the good kind. she loved india and from the pictures i have seen of her - seemed to have made india her home. you should differentiate the good from the bad. there are missionaries (benny hinn..yuck..) that treat christianity like a business.
Yes, there are some good missionaries lik MT. Just like ordinary decent christians back home, who unlike MEGoody & co, dont insult people who dont belong to their faith and are easy to get along with.
Some people just want to use history as an excuse. There is enough opportunity for people of all races - men or women in america.
Of course, I appreciate the oppurtunities :) Most Americans I know are quite good natured and tolerant.
dude..what crap are you smoking...if you dislike the US soo much then get out of my country. stop this mad ranting against americans. nobody is keeping you here against your will. grow up...
Isnt it a fact that racial segregation was sanctioned by many white ......
nucking futs.....you need to check out the civil war in the 1860s when thousands of americans died fighting AGAINST slavery. or maybe the second world war where this country fought the nazis. can you quote similar examples from your own history?
You need to learn some manners, I'm a guest in your country, and if this is the way you treat people who come here, it reflects something on your own personal culture.
Why do you automatically presume that I'm anti-American just because I told you something I observed ?
FYI, I dont smoke anything.. and you know what, even in so-called cosmopolitan NY, I did experience racism personally.. more than once.. like not being allowed to enter a restaurant, being made fun of my skin color, etc.
Of course, I dont use those unfortunate episodes to judge American culture or people.. I still think the majority of people here are decent.
First of all, I'm a ma'am.
Secondly, introspect what? I've examined the issue, even studied Hinduism briefly - considered becoming a Hindu. You presume I haven't examined this issue just because I hold a different opinion than you? That's rather closed minded.
" You seem to think that only you have the right to criticize other religions in a highly abrasive and deprecating manner, while turning a blind eye to your own side's fallacies ?"
Please reference the post where I ever said that.
:::::Crickets:::::
" Isnt it a fact that the southern baptists said they had religious approval for propagating and sustaining the sickening and highly barbaric institution of slavery ??"<
I know that there were some who attempted to use the bible to support legal slavery, and there were those who used the bible to show that slavery is wrong.
"Isnt it a fact that they split from the mainline Baptist church, solely in order to sustain this inhuman and highly revolting practice of dehumanizing black people ? Isnt it a fact that they didnt even apologize for their not-too-insignificant role in sustaining this evil abominance till early 1990s ???? Isnt it a fact that racial segregation was sanctioned by many white southern churches, even while Rev. King was fighting against it ?
Yep. Slavery was immoral. Doesn't change the fact that the caste system is immoral. Surely you aren't trying to say that two wrongs make a right, are you?
"Just look at American society today, people still are very segregated and usually people of each race stick to one another.. compared to India, where Hindus, Christians and Sikhs get along very well, atleast in Urban society, in US, its hard to find whites, blacks and hispanics get along that well along the same lines even in big cities."
I know for a fact they have their incidents, just as we do here. Please don't be so disingenous as to try to paint India with a utopian brush.
"BTW, why is it that wherever there was/is apartheid and racial segregation, there is Christianity... is that a mere coincidence sir ?
Again, it's ma'am.
And please post where I ever said it was 'coincidence'.
::::::crickets:::::::
Spoonerisms are soo cliche.. grow up.. time to get over such cunning stunts ;)
Yes, those were great episodes in history that made US a great nation. They are truly inspirational to people all over the world and are a testimony to some innate level of fairness, that is present in most Americans.
can you quote similar examples from your own history ?
1. Providing Asylum and rehabilitating half a million Buddhist Tibetan refugees from Chinese Persecution.
2. Providing Asylum to the entire peoples of Zoroastrian faith from Shia/Iranian persecution.
3. Providing refuge to 10 million Bengali "muslim" refugees who were persecuted by Urdu-speaking Pakistani soldiers.
4. Rescuing the country of Maldives from military coup in late 1980s.
5. Starting the world's largest affirmative action policy that reserves up to 80% of seats in professional schools and up to 50% of jobs in public sector to lower castes, minorities and women.
6. The only country in the world that has elected a members of minority to head the executive body of governance, the head of state and the supreme leader of the ruling party.
we can make do without "guests" of your kind. you come here and criticise a country that is giving you an opportunity. go to saudi arabia and live like a slave guest there. if you dislike this country then you should do the right thing and LEAVE..
There is a famous story about the great Hindu philosopher/saint Shankaracharya. While walking with important persons, his path was obstructed by an untouchable. The untouchable was promptly abused by the great (in their own minds) pundits. Shankara, though, prostrated hinself on the ground before the untouchable and touched his feet with his outstretched hands. He later explained that God is in everyone.
That's real Hinduism. Abuse of others in Hinduism, as in Christianity or any other true religion, is not a characteristic of the religion. I'm not sure about Islam, though.
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