Posted on 04/11/2005 10:25:55 AM PDT by Michael_Michaelangelo
Yes. Evil exists.
Fine, that is a rational conclusion.
And God could have prevented evil.
Fine, that is a rational conclusion as well, so long as God does not consider it evil.
Instead He chose to permit it to exist to demonstrate His power and glory.
Then he must consider its existence good if it exists at his discretion.
The existence of evil demonstrates that choice is real. Evil cannot defeat God.
That would seem to follow, if evil exists at God's discretion
He is proving His ability to overcome evil and transforming evil into good.
To overcome evil? To transform evil into good? Why does god need to prove any of that? Either evil exists at his discretion, or it does not. You seem to claim that it exists entirely at his discretion, in which case it exists because god wants it to exist.
None of that is irrational. What is irrational is your apparent conclusion that: Evil exists entirely at god's discretion although he doesn't want it to exist. That is not a rational statement.
If that is true, that is a capricious or an irrational god, and we cannot reason out the whims of such a god, so he is irrelevant to us from a practical standpoint.
> The Bible does not dispute science.
Those who believe that God created Man via evolution are in conflict with neither the Bible nor science.
I believe every attempt has resulted in problems, causing glaring contradictions, and empty support for faith. The example I like to use is how Thomas was dumb-founded at Jesus' re-appearance. He says he can't believe it, until he touches the wounds... So Jesus says (like) "Go ahead and touch them if you want, but I've returned, with or without this evidence you need."
I don't think Thomas was wrong to want evidence (heck, Jesus GAVE it to him. He didn't say "no, no evidence for you!"), rather Jesus said that science isn't needed if you have faith.
So.... if you're looking for "truth"... all we will ever know for certain (until we die maybe) is our own small lives, the wonderful people in it, the ugly sins that we see all over the place... The "here and now", like sitting down for breakfast, or a lunch-time burger.
God bless the mundane. That's the only truth I really care about, and it's essentially why I'm a Republican. I don't ever want to be like the liberals who have something to prove in life by acting flashy, moving to the city for recognition, or going to cocktail parties so they can scoff at the lower class. (I'm being rather abstract, but it all makes sense to me.)
Exactly.
Do you have children?
Oh, I see what your game is. The common statement that god is "infinite" does not refer to infinite in the sense of "greater than any arbitrarily large value"; it refers to infinite in the sense of "unlimited in spatial extent." If that wasn't clear before, now it is, and it's a self-contained statement.
You are still basically arguing that God doesn't exist because you exist. That a God that would create you must be evil.
It's a no win argument. If you win a Just God will undo the evil He caused and destroy you.
If you lose, then either you will agree that God is good despite having made you and your having chosen to be evil, and you will therefore logically agree God's judgement on you is just. Or...
You will cease to be evil, and therefore prove God good for having created you.
The only way you win is by stopping this nonsense and becoming obedient to God.
There is no game. You need to prove a statement you made.
"Then he must consider its existence good if it exists at his discretion."
Either that or he considers "choice" good, and so He leaves us not with Evil, but with Choice.
You can't take care of a horse without dealing with it's crap.
It's not scientists or skeptics who go ape when you say something like "God used evolution to create Man." Read through the Freeper Crevo threads, and you'll find the same Creationist/IDers going nuts at the very notion of evolution. Non-believers liek myself find nothing argue-worthy over "God did it via evolution," since God cannot be scientifically ruled out. However, science pretty much *has* ruled out Creationism.
That is an article of faith. It does not follow from reason.
God can be infinite (i.e. omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent) without bein omnicontrolling and without forcing His will on beings created by Him to have free will.
Nonsense. Refer back to the discussion on the finiteness of free will. I linked it for you already. Free will is not absolute, and so if it was created, it had limits forced upon it.
Yes, why?
"However, science pretty much *has* ruled out Creationism."
If you're talking about the Biblical interp of Creationism I would disagree. If you're talking about "6 days and God said 'poof' and that was it" then yes, I would go with you.
Do you love them?
Well, I have done so. An unlimited god is all-encompassing. If a god is not all-encompassing then he has limits. I am clearly using "infinite" as the opposite of "limited" - period.
By example, the set of odd numbers has limits, even though it is infinite. It doesn't include any even numbers.
Sorry for snapping at you a bit. It just annoys me when people turn a discussion into tedium for no reason other than as a rhetorical tactic.
Yes, why?
Very true! Well, I have to bow out of this discussion. It's already taken up a lot more of my day than I had time to waste. See ya around!
God is not a contradiction.
I think I see where you are going, but I'm watching you reel him in.
Do you want them to be harmed?
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