Posted on 04/09/2005 3:59:58 PM PDT by churchillbuff
Who is making this claim?
It's the common understanding that it was Peter and Paul who made the decision (God - inspired, I would say) to move beyond the Jewish community, and convert Gentiles without requiring that they obey Jewish dietary laws or get circumcised.
Now, do you have any knowledge about my "alma" question?
By Dr. Michael Rydelnik, Founder of Olive Tree Messianic Jewish Congregation and Chairman of the Jewish Studies Dept, Moody Bible Institute
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An Old Testament passage thousands of years old still sparks debate between Jews and Christians today. To whom does this mysterious passage refer?
Isaiah 52:13-15; 53:1-12:
"Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. As many were astonished at thee; his appearance was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men. So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows, yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities, the punishment for our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth. He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment and who shall declare his generation? For he was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied. By his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."
One of the key Old Testament passages debated by Jewish and Christian scholars is Isaiah 53. Jewish sources say the suffering servant depicted here refers to the nation of Israel. Christians contend it refers to the Messiah.
Can the suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 be Israel? The text of the passage itself plainly says no. Here are the reasons:
The Pronouns
In Isaiah 53:1-9, there is a clear distinction in pronouns. The speakers uniformly identify themselves in the first person plural (we, us and our), while the Servant is consistently described in the third person singular (he, him and his). Isaiah the prophet, a Jew, in speaking of himself and his own nation Israel, uses the pronouns we, us and our. He describes the Servant as someone other than himself and his people in using the pronouns he, him and his. Since the speakers are plainly Isaiah's people Israel (we), the Servant whom they describe (he) must be someone other than Israel. They both cannot be Israel.
The People
In Isaiah 53:8, Isaiah declares that the Servant was put to death "through the transgressions of my people". Obviously, Isaiah's people are the Jewish people. If the Servant died for the children of Israel, the Servant cannot also be the children of Israel.
The Sufferer's Innocence
The passage repeatedly claims the innocence of the Servant. Isaiah 53:4-6 says that His suffering was not for His own sin but for the sins of others. Verse 9 specifically states, "He had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth." However, the prophets, especially Isaiah, never characterize Israel (or any nation) as perfectly innocent. Isaiah says of Israel, "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as a filthy garment" (Isaiah 64:5). Since Isaiah affirms the Servant's innocence while at the same time affirming Israel's guilt, Israel cannot be the Servant.
The Servant's Willingness
Isaiah 53:7-12 describes the Servant as a voluntary and unresisting Sufferer. He is characterized as willingly accepting His suffering (verse 7), rendering Himself as a guilt offering (verse 10), and laying open His soul unto death (53:12). Certainly the Jewish people have suffered immensely at the hands of anti-Semites, who must still answer to God for their awful deeds. But despite the enormity of Jewish suffering, they never received it willingly.
The Servant's Death
The passage says that the Servant was "cut off out of the land of the living" (53:8) and that "he hath laid open his soul unto death"(53:12). Were the Jewish people ever, as a whole, put to death? No, we joyfully sing, "Am Yisrael Chai!" ("The People of Israel Live!"). In fact, in Jeremiah 31:34-36, God promises that the children of Israel will exist forever. Thus, since the Servant was "cut off," it is impossible to say that Israel is the Servant.
The Servant's Substitution
One of the main points of the passage is that the Servant died as a substitute for the sins of others. Nowhere do the Scriptures teach that Israel would suffer for the sins of others, only at the hands of others. For this reason, Israel is not the Servant in Isaiah 53.
The evidence is clear. The characteristics of the Servant cannot and do not apply to the Jewish people. The only One who fits the description is the Yeshua, the Jewish Messiah.
www.MessianicAssociation.com
Website Editor: Mottel@MessianicAssociation.org
I realize that this article will have little if any affect on the debate that is in progress, but I thought it might be good to throw it into the mix for anyone who might be interested.
I've read that the translators of the Hebrew Testament into Greek - which took place before Jesus -- translated the word as virgin. Do a google search, you'll see this widely asserted, I believe.
Your analogy, which, by the way, I've seen you post before, is not only needlessly offensive, but not a logical analogy. Allah is not the Jewish God, nor the Christian one.
Allah and Jehovah are two different dieties. You know that as well as I.
They are all good Christians, but believe that Mohammed was the Second Coming of Jesus Christ,
Mad Mo had nothing to do with Jesus. Read Mohammed's biography: Pedophile, murderer, polygamist, pillager, warmongerer.
Contrast that with Jesus: Kind, gentle, wise, deliberate, compassinate, teacher. Messiah and savior who "took the bullet" of God's anger and became the scapegoat for humanity's transgressions against God.
and all other Christians need to accept Mohammed's teachings, or burn for an eternity in Hell.
Please don't blame Christians for the rules that God has set, or the reward and punishment he has ordained. Not our fault. We're just tellin' ya what He's said.
I hope you will welcome them with open arms, they want to share Mohammed's message of peace with all of you.
PEACE? Very little "peace" in Islam. You know that. You aren't ignorant of Islam (I know you're not), so don't feign it. Please don't conflate Islam with Christianity, which has everything in common with Judaism.
Enjoy, and remember, they are good Christians, so they are just like you. If you don't approve of them, you're just a racist, sexist, homophobic extremist fanatic. Here's a Koran.
Ok, you made your point, and I confess that I got a chuckle out of it (and, like I've said, I recall that you've posted this before), and I can see your point of view. Nonetheless, you are trying to make enemies out of Christians, which doesn't help matters at all.
I've always had Jewish friends, and I've been entirely impressed with their morality, their sense of propriety. (At least, that is, the religious ones--not so with the secular ones, sadly.) I've defended Judaism to my agnostic friends, and opened the eyes of some of my Christian friends who held misconceptions about them.
Peace.
Google is not an authority. You can pull up all kinds of crap with Google.
The Septuagint translation is not an authority over the original Hebrew scriptures. I am not familiar with Greek so I don't know the specific meaning of the Greek word that was used in the translation, but the Hebrew word for virgin is bethulah and is used in the scriptures whenever virgin is the intended meaning.
No translation can supersede authority of the original document. At best it is an approximation.
Excellent post on Isaiah, epow!
What I find needlessly offensive is this thread which elevates a Jew who converted to another faith as some kind of shining example to all other Jews. It's a slap in the face to those of us who choose not to convert.
If the thought of "Christians for Islam" is offensive to you, you know how I feel.
Wouldn't upset me. I'd rather be RIGHT, than WIN an argument or debate. I'll gladly abandon my viewpoint for a superior one presented by someone else. It's more important to be on the right side than browbeat and "win" a debate. Life is short; let's struggle toward the Truth, not conceal it.
To that end, as my pastor says, "Christianity is a knowledge-based religion." He's right. It's not about unravelling one layer of secret knowledge toward an attainment of perfection.
Christianity is also not a "works-based religion": There is no way to earn God's favor. You can't do it. Mother Theresa couldn't do it. God is extending His hand down; all we need do is take it. That's all that's being asked. Don't be too proud to take the forgiveness being extended.
When you really think about it, you realize that's how you can easily differentiate between those who are arrogant and proud, and those who are kind and humble. Apparently, it's an easy way to separate humanity into those worth saving, and those who won't accept it.
Who is in charge of determining what is or is not Judaism?
Is there a central Jewish authority?
Is someone sitting on David's throne with the unquestioned authority to determine whether or not a belief is Jewish or not?
Seems to me the only real qualification for being Jewish is that you don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah. But who made up that rule?
It seems to me that you can believe that Sammy Davis Jr. was the Messiah and still be considered Jewish, but you can't believe that Jesus of Nazareth held that title.
Obviously. But when the question is, what did Jewish scholars (prior to Christ) take "alma" to mean, then the way they translated it, when translating into Greek, surely provides some insight. If they used the Greek word for "virgin," then that would indicate they thought alma in the Hebrew Text of Isaiah meant "virgin."
All good and fair questions.
Get a copy of The Case For Christ and you'll find them all answered.
HTH.
Fine. But what does the word, "alma" in the Hebrew text of Isaiah mean? If Jewish scholars, when translating into Greek, used the Greek word for "virgin," then wouldn't that indicate they thought "alma" used in the Hebrew Testament, in the context of Isaiah, meant virgin? If they thought it just meant "young woman," wouldn't they have translated it to "Young woman" in Greek, not "virgin"?
Jews generally get to decide who is and who isn't a Jew. But lately it seems as though Christians want to decide that for us as well. If it makes you feel better, go for it. Just know that none of us will listen or believe you if you say you are Jewish when your momma isn't and you haven't had a proper conversion.
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