The Origin of Rights - (God, Creator?......or Government?)

"Rights are a priori. This means they are there whether they are recognized or not."

That is from the mouth of Plato, where he said ideal forms exist purely and the physical forms are an imperfection of those ideas. This is Greek Philosophy not from God. It doesn't matter whether "rights" existed a priori or not, if they were not recognised, no-one had them!

My point is modern rights are a recent phenomena. It can be proved with facts. Jefferson said all men were equal, except his black slaves! All men are equal, except women, who had to wait until approx 80 years ago for equal "rights".

If a tree falls in a forest and there's no one there to hear the sound, it DOES make a sound.

A tree falling would certainly create vibrations in the air and ground even if there was no-one there, but there would be no sound unless an ear was there to transfer those vibrations to the brain to create "sound". :)

"Jean-Jacques Rousseau was the first person in History to talk of the modern concept of "rights" and (along with Thomas Paine) deeply influenced the American constitution and French Revolution. He was the first man in history, to dismiss the superiority of Monarchy over the individual man. There is no talk of "rights" in the Bible because the concept was not developed."

The concepts of Life being sacred, Man having the ability to choose his master, and that God wants us to be happy are MAJOR parts of the Bible.

What you refer to in these men is the first time it was addressed. It's like saying Newton invented the concept of gravity. It's always been there, just not always observed.

A revolutionary thought 5000 years ago was a caste system in India. This means before then, people didn't have a caste system. Less efficient yes, but it shows that it changed FROM total assumed equality.

"I never said one man invented freedom. He was the first to espouse the concept that we would both understand of "rights" of the common man. If you can show me any earlier discussion, feel free, but you won't."

I believe you missed the part in your own sentence where you said the concept arose from Jean-Jacques Rousseau. That is wrong. That is what I addressed. The concept has ALWAYS existed. We just then took it in that understanding.

"I don't recall Jefferson giving any "rights" to his slaves or women, which I am sure you will disagree with, so his "subjective" view of rights would be different than ours."

And I don't recall our Constitution being used to claim ANY man could "give rights"

Yes, it was wrong to have such slaves, but that does not mean that Jefferson was acting as the arbitor of freedom. He was a messenger.

And again:

Read the Bible. Look up "Life" "Choosing one's master" and "Happiness"

Inalienable. God made us to have all of those.

This is a great thread full of wonderful debate! It seems that rights -- whether they are given by man or God, or exist a priori or whether they can ever be taken away -- can only meaningfully exist if people believe in them to the point that they are willing fight to protect their rights. It one thing to say we have rights in the abstract and another to say, "see my rights... they exist because I fought for them." Someone said, "freedom doesn't come free" and if you don't fight for it, chances are it won't come at all.

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