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VANITY NOTICE: I've just learned that I am an "EXTREMIST!" WOO HOO!! [This is NOT an OPUS]
FreeRepublic.com | April 5th, 2005 | Jim Robinson

Posted on 04/05/2005 2:22:08 PM PDT by Jim Robinson

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To: Petronski
LOL, Ski.

Extremely excellent bump.

481 posted on 04/06/2005 9:16:16 PM PDT by Miss Behave (Beloved daughter of Miss Creant, super sister of danged Miss Ology, and proud mother of Miss Hap.)
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To: Jim Robinson

Bumpin' it up to the EXTREME. ;-)


482 posted on 04/06/2005 9:17:34 PM PDT by Miss Behave (Beloved daughter of Miss Creant, super sister of danged Miss Ology, and proud mother of Miss Hap.)
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To: Right Wing Professor; lugsoul; Jim Robinson; jla; LS
>"This doesn't, of course, prove that the quote is bogus - it would be impossible to do that without searching every word Madison wrote in his entire life - but it does eliminate Harvard Law School as corroboration. I think it would be wiser to treat the quote as 'suspect' if not actually 'busted'"<


Thanks for the update, Professor. That's the double edged sword of the Internet, I guess. Easy to find information, and twice as easy to spread misinformation.

Here's a quote; attributed to Hitler:
"For the first time a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead in the future!" – Adolf Hitler...( he didn't say it)
-But you will see that 'misquote everywhere on the Internet...


'They Never Said It':
"A Book of Fake Quotes, Misquotes, and Mis-Leading Attributions" - by Paul F. Boller

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0195055411/ref=sib_rdr_dp/002-4142444-2456833?%5Fencoding=UTF8&no=283155&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER&st=books


Regards
483 posted on 04/06/2005 9:41:19 PM PDT by FBD
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To: Jim Robinson

From Lib to Right-Wing Extremist! Most beautiful transformation I've ever seen!


484 posted on 04/06/2005 9:47:49 PM PDT by LoudAmericanCowboy (''If the president just does more of the same every day...I may be handed Lebanon..."-John F'n Kerry)
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To: FBD
Harvard has pulled that webpage, and it appears that lugsoul was right, that is not a documentable quote of Madison's.

It took me about 6 emails to persuade them to do it. The president of that society is a truly obnoxious little twit; I was considering sending the info. to the Harvard Crimson, who would be delighted to publish that a group of law students supposedly devoted to the original intent of the founders couldn't tell the original writings of the founders from a fake quote fabricated for a motivational calendar in 1958.

485 posted on 04/06/2005 9:57:12 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: FBD; Right Wing Professor
A stained glass window of George Washington praying, in the chapel in the U.S. Capitol

A stained glass window of George Washington praying, in the chapel in the U.S. Capitol

;)
486 posted on 04/06/2005 11:34:24 PM PDT by DaveTesla (You can fool some of the people some of the time......)
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To: FBD; Right Wing Professor


HOME - EXHIBITION OVERVIEW - OBJECT LIST
SECTIONS: I. America as Refuge - II. 18th Century America
III. American Revolution - IV. Congress of the Confederation - V. State Governments
VI. Federal Government - VII. New Republic


VI. Religion and the Federal Government
[ PART 1 ] [ PART 2 ]

In response to widespread sentiment that to survive the United States needed a stronger federal government, a convention met in Philadelphia in the summer of 1787 and on September 17 adopted the Constitution of the United States. Aside from Article VI, which stated that "no religious Test shall ever be required as Qualification" for federal office holders, the Constitution said little about religion. Its reserve troubled two groups of Americans--those who wanted the new instrument of government to give faith a larger role and those who feared that it would do so. This latter group, worried that the Constitution did not prohibit the kind of state-supported religion that had flourished in some colonies, exerted pressure on the members of the First Federal Congress. In September 1789 the Congress adopted the First Amendment to the Constitution, which, when ratified by the required number of states in December 1791, forbade Congress to make any law "respecting an establishment of religion."

The first two Presidents of the United States were patrons of religion--George Washington was an Episcopal vestryman, and John Adams described himself as "a church going animal." Both offered strong rhetorical support for religion. In his Farewell Address of September 1796, Washington called religion, as the source of morality, "a necessary spring of popular government," while Adams claimed that statesmen "may plan and speculate for Liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand." Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, the third and fourth Presidents, are generally considered less hospitable to religion than their predecessors, but evidence presented in this section shows that, while in office, both offered religion powerful symbolic support.



487 posted on 04/06/2005 11:46:15 PM PDT by DaveTesla (You can fool some of the people some of the time......)
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To: FBD; Right Wing Professor

Many Americans were disappointed that the Constitution did not contain a bill of rights that would explicitly enumerate the rights of American citizens and enable courts and public opinion to protect these rights from an oppressive government. Supporters of a bill of rights permitted the Constitution to be adopted with the understanding that the first Congress under the new government would attempt to add a bill of rights.
James Madison took the lead in steering such a bill through the First Federal Congress, which convened in the spring of 1789. The Virginia Ratifying Convention and Madison's constituents, among whom were large numbers of Baptists who wanted freedom of religion secured, expected him to push for a bill of rights. On September 28, 1789, both houses of Congress voted to send twelve amendments to the states. In December 1791, those ratified by the requisite three fourths of the states became the first ten amendments to the Constitution. Religion was addressed in the First Amendment in the following familiar words: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." In notes for his June 8, 1789, speech introducing the Bill of Rights, Madison indicated his opposition to a "national" religion. Most Americans agreed that the federal government must not pick out one religion and give it exclusive financial and legal support.


488 posted on 04/06/2005 11:50:30 PM PDT by DaveTesla (You can fool some of the people some of the time......)
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To: DaveTesla
Proposed Constitutional Amendments The Virginia Ratifying Convention approved the Constitution with the understanding that the state's representatives in the First Federal Congress would try to procure amendments that the Convention recommended. The twentieth proposed amendment deals with religion; it is an adaptation of the final article in the Virginia Declaration of Rights of 1776 with this additional phrase: "that no particular religious sect or society ought to be favored or established by Law in preference to others." http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/vc006497.jpg
489 posted on 04/06/2005 11:57:40 PM PDT by DaveTesla (You can fool some of the people some of the time......)
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To: PaRebel

Read the opinions of the 2nd DCA.


490 posted on 04/07/2005 3:51:31 AM PDT by lugsoul (Wild Turkey)
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To: FBD

Right. There WAS no "gun control law" in Nazi Germany . . . because the Weimar Republic, in 1926, had already banned all guns and basically confiscated most. The democracy did it---the Nazis didn't have to.


491 posted on 04/07/2005 4:19:38 AM PDT by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of news)
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To: PaRebel
Please show what courts other than Greer's reviewed the facts of the case.

The Congress ordered and put a de novo review in the Federal system, yet on Page 8 of one of the opinions of the Federal Circuit Court (applellate level) one finds this:

To the extent plaintiffs complain that the quantum of evidence did not rise to the level of clear and convincing, these claimed evidentiary errors are a matter of state law, not federal constitutional law.

There's your de novo review of the facts. Back in state court, so says the Federal Circuit court. The de novo review was limited to errors of law.

http://www.flmd.uscourts.gov/al-arian/Opinions/Schiavo-v-Schiavo-2ndOrderDenyingTRO.pdf

492 posted on 04/07/2005 4:29:41 AM PDT by Cboldt
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To: Cboldt; lugsoul

"The De Novo review was limited to errors of law". That is my point; to assert that there were multiple courts who "reveiwed" the case is, at best, disengenuous.


493 posted on 04/07/2005 5:32:37 AM PDT by PaRebel (Visualize Whirled Peas!)
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To: FBD
Rather than James Madison or Virginia Universities you might have better luck in verifying the quote at the Nat'l Archives.

The schools might tend to be a tad liberal thus wishing to suppress any pro-Christianity thoughts from Mr. M.

494 posted on 04/07/2005 6:06:13 AM PDT by jla
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To: PaRebel
That is my point; to assert that there were multiple courts who "reveiwed" the case is, at best, disengenuous.

I hold the opinion that it is deliberate misdirection and/or misinformation, and encourage all readers to check the raw evidence for themselves in order to form a reasoned opinion.

495 posted on 04/07/2005 6:11:56 AM PDT by Cboldt
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To: Cboldt

It is discouraging to believe that folks on this site would purposefully promulgate dis-information. But, having been around the block more than a few times, I know that anything is possible.


496 posted on 04/07/2005 6:24:33 AM PDT by PaRebel (Visualize Whirled Peas!)
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To: Cboldt

It is discouraging to believe that folks on this site would purposefully promulgate dis-information. But, having been around the block more than a few times, I know that anything is possible.


497 posted on 04/07/2005 6:25:59 AM PDT by PaRebel (Visualize Whirled Peas!)
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To: PaRebel; Cboldt
As I've said a couple of times now, read the opinions of the 2nd District Court of Appeals. They make it plain that they reviewed the FACTS, even though they were not legally required to do so.

You can say they didn't do it all you want, but their opinions make it quite plain to anyone who can read what they wrote that they did, in fact, review the facts. Or perhaps you have another explanation for why they reviewed ALL of the videotape submitted?

498 posted on 04/07/2005 6:56:36 AM PDT by lugsoul (Wild Turkey)
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To: lugsoul
If you don't mind me asking, what is your motive for defending the courts and attorneys in the Terri Schindler case?

You obviously have extensive, detailed (first hand?) information surrounding many aspects of the case. You've mentioned that you've been in attendance at the annual FL bar meetings....

"I've been to annual meetings of The Florida Bar, and never at this location"....lugsoul

Do you have insider information that you feel must be brought to light on FR?

And you feel qualified to educate others on Constitutional Law....

"Let me give you a 20 second remedial education in constitutional law."..."[editorial comment: those who claim that the appeals court simply "rubberstamped" Greer have either not read their decisions or cannot comprehend them]".....lugsoul.

Love your arrogance, err I mean expertise.

One of your favorite sayings, 'Facts, schmacts'...If facts are important.....

"Jay Wolfson represented Michael? That'd be news to him. And to Jeb Bush, who appointed him."...lugsoul

Actually, Judge Demers appointed Wolfson on Oct 31, 2003.

Yet you are quick to use the 'slander' card if anyone questions the guardians' background and bias.

You must know that you aren't changing hearts and minds regarding the Killing of Terri Schindler. No matter how you nuance the facts, schmacts lugsoul.

Motives are everything - are you protecting the reputation of others? Jim is right on this issue. And no brainiac arguments will change that. The Schindler's were forced to watch the torture and execution of their daughter and sister. And we the people will never forget.
499 posted on 04/07/2005 8:40:34 AM PDT by falpro
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To: PaRebel
Here are links to, and selected excerpts from, the Florida Appellate Court Opinions.

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/2dcaorder01-01.txt <--

We have reviewed that testimony and conclude that the trial court had sufficient evidence to make this decision. The clear and convincing standard of proof, while very high, permits a decision in the face of inconsistent or conflicting evidence. See In re Guardianship of Browning, 543 So.2d at 273.

In Browning, we stated:

In making this difficult decision, a surrogate decisionmaker should err on the side of life.... In cases of doubt, we must assume that a patient would choose to defend life in exercising his or her right of privacy. In re Guardianship of Browning, 543 So.2d at 273. We reconfirm today that a court's default position must favor life.

The testimony in this case establishes that Theresa was very young and very healthy when this tragedy struck. Like many young people without children, she had not prepared a will, much less a living will. She had been raised in the Catholic faith, but did not regularly attend mass or have a religious advisor who could assist the court in weighing her religious attitudes about life-support methods. Her statements to her friends and family about the dying process were few and they were oral. Nevertheless, those statements, along with other evidence about Theresa, gave the trial court a sufficient basis to make this decision for her.

In the final analysis, the difficult question that faced the trial court was whether Theresa Marie Schindler Schiavo, not after a few weeks in a coma, but after ten years in a persistent vegetative state that has robbed her of most of her cerebrum and all but the most instinctive of neurological functions, with no hope of a medical cure but with sufficient money and strength of body to live indefinitely, would choose to continue the constant nursing care and the supporting tubes in hopes that a miracle would somehow recreate her missing brain tissue, or whether she would wish to permit a natural death process to take its course and for her family members and loved ones to be free to continue their lives. After due consideration, we conclude that the trial judge had clear and convincing evidence to answer this question as he did.

I submit that the question posed by the court is incorrect on many counts, including a presumption that Terri's wishes would be conditioned on recovery; that the death was "natural;" and that Terri's wishes would somehow relate to "freeing her family." IMO, this appellate court is playing a CYA for the trial court; i.e., they are all judges, and it pains them to be critial of one another. Professional courtesy and all that.

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/2dcaorder07-01.txt <--

That opinion is fairly complex, and touchs on some deficiencies relating to "new evidence" and whether or not the Schindlers were a legally proper party in the legal action.

Almost as soon as the procedures were discontinued, the Schindlers were informed of new evidence that they believe establishes that their daughter would either not have made that decision fourteen months earlier at the time the original order was entered, or that she would make a different decision at this time. On April 26, 2001, the Schindlers filed a motion for relief from judgment in the guardianship proceeding. That motion alleged that the Schindlers had discovered new evidence in the form of testimony from a new witness. According to the motion, this witness was a former girlfriend of Mr. Schiavo. She allegedly would testify that Mr. Schiavo told her that Mrs. Schiavo and Mr. Schiavo never discussed what Mrs. Schiavo's wishes would be in her present condition. The motion alleged that this testimony was contrary to Mr. Schiavo's testimony at trial, and that it might prove Mr. Schiavo committed perjury in the proceedings. The Schindlers attached two affidavits to the motion. Neither of these affidavits was executed by the witness.

Instead, the affidavits were given by Mr. Schindler and by a private investigator hired by Mr. Schindler, and contained hearsay allegations regarding what this potential witness told them. [FN2]

FN2. Technically, the notary stated in each affidavit that the witness "acknowledged" the "foregoing instrument." The notary did not use the normal language "sworn to or affirmed and signed before me."

That means the affidavits filed in the trial court below (which ruled in Schindler's favor) were deficient as evidence. I agree with that conclusion. The affididavit should reflect the statement of the witness, Terri's friend. The Schindler's corrected the deficiency, and here is what the appellate court had to say ...

The new information the Schindlers provided to the guardianship court in the hearsay affidavits supporting their motion for relief from judgment is not as forceful as the evidence described in our hypothetical scenarios. [FN9] The affidavits concern alleged statements by Mr. Schiavo several years ago. We note that the guardianship court's original order expressly relied upon and found credible the testimony of witnesses other than Mr. Schiavo or the Schindlers. We recognize that Mrs. Schiavo's earlier oral statements were important evidence when deciding whether she would choose in February 2000 to withdraw life-prolonging procedures. See 765.401(3), Fla. Stat. (2000); In re Guardianship of Browning, 568 So.2d 4, 16. Nevertheless, the trial judge, acting as her proxy, also properly considered evidence of Mrs. Schiavo's values, personality, and her own decision-making process.

FN9. The deposition of the witness referred to in the affidavits was taken after these appeals were filed. Although Mr. Schiavo has filed a copy of that deposition with this court as part of his motion to enforce mandate, for the purposes of this specific appeal the court concludes that it should consider only the information available at the time the guardianship court denied the motion for relief from judgment.

The "hypothetical scenarios" are finding a written directive by Terri, or finding that teh medical diagnosis (of TERMINAL! according to this court) is incorrect -- in fact, the court says that Schindlers are expect to contest the fact that Terri's brain has suffered major permanent damage. Anyway, the court is saying that Terri's friend's testimony that Michaels said he and Terri never talked about her end wishes is not as powerful as finding Terri's written wishes, or as powerful as medical tesimony that Terri would "recover" (whatever that means). FN9 is the court saying that it will NOT consider the friend's tesimony, now before it in the form of an affidavit from Terri's friend.

I obtained the links to these court opinins, and others at ...

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html <--

500 posted on 04/07/2005 8:46:17 AM PDT by Cboldt
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