Schiavo Case Spurring Statehouse Debate

Wilmington Star/AP ^ | April 3, 2005 | ROBERT TANNER

[Trinity_Tx]

The only thing that might make you of questionable mind, would be to let a doctor (or several doctors) who spend less than 30 minutes "assessing" you, decide from an cat scan that they know your cognitive status, prognosis, and worthiness to live....better than the people who love you and have known you for much of your life, and who ALL sense that "you" are still there....and who all sense or know innately that "you" want help to live....and that "you" are wanted and will be cared for by them, even if your disabilities are severe.


But that isn't what happened in Terri's case, either. Far from it. Right or wrong, she was diagnosed PVS by every doctor she had since '90, until the two her parents chose in 2002. They determined that by her lack of progress in 3 years of therapy, clinical exams, her CT scans, SPECT scans (her parents' docs even prefered SPECT over PET), and all her multiple EEGs since '90 that showed no cerebral activity.

A critical ball was dropped by the parents' attorneys in choosing the awful Hammesfahr and, to a lesser extent, Maxwell to testify at the 2002 trial that she could improve.

In such a critical decision, you don't pick a guy who ads in National Enquirer, is listed at Quackwatch, pretends to be a Nobel Nominee, lies about not realizing it's not true, tries to imply something abnormal about her neck to suggest he abused her, won't submit his report on Terri (so oft cited here) for cross-examination, and repeatedly dodges and weaves about those things as well as his abilities on the stand.

But the question wasn't whether or not she was PVS, anyway. They didn't use that law. They only needed to show that she wouldn't recover capacity to change her mind so that the original decision that it was her choice would no longer apply.

We can and should debate the "clear and convincing evidence" of her wishes standard. It wasn't enough for me either, really.

But most of the other stuff we've wasted time and credibility on here is either not true, or irrelevant.

[silverleaf]

After 5 or 6 minutes w/o O2, the brain cells start to die, and they aren't going to grow back. If my cerebrum is gone, then I'm gone, never mind if some hotshot EMT gets my heart going again.

Not necessarily. Do some reading on the subject of neuroplasticiy. Can't even imagine where we will be in understanding and applying this in 5-10-15 years. Look at the advances in treating multiple sclerosis, just one disease in which the brain cells die.

[silverleaf]

In reading the assessment provided by Terri's doctors, it seems that many of her doctors simply scoured her records and repeated the same notes and diagnoses of other doctors, who had referred to the notes from still earlier examinations. Dr Hammesfahr spent 10 hours with Terri and did as thorough a view of her records as he could muster (with incomplete records) and got to personally expereince her personality.

Anything that was in Terri's favor of living was and still is being dismissed, and much if it by people who haven't read it for themselves. The videotapes f Terri loving her mother with her eyes, enjoying music, following commands and even exerting super effort to comply...are being scorned as "edited" to highlight primitive movements...the family, priests, attorneys (most under deposition) and nurses who were willing to testify (pretty brave to buck the industry and challenge a doctor's stated dignosis), are being slandered and derided. The two doctors who went to court to say they could help her (not cure her, but help her communicate) are being called quacks....the speech therapist and 50 other doctors who called the family to offer help after seeing the videotapes in recent weeks - all buried with Terri's records and ashes.

In one videotape, the doctor who held a balloon and praised Terri for following it with her eyes was Dr Bambakidis. Who then went to court in 2002 and certified her as PVS. He also testified as to Terri's abnormal neck (which impeded her ability to turn her head in tracking assessment. although Dr Bambakidis did not report that..only Dr Hammesfahr spent enough time to notice it). As have others.

Dr Bambakidis also did not mention (as Dr Hammesfahr noticed from her records) that Terri was virtually blind... but that Michael and the Judge would never permit an opthalmic exam and perhaps glasses. After all, why would a vegetable need glasses? Nor di the court appointed Doctors report that Terri had extremely low blood pressure. Maybe because the other doctors did not TAKE her blood pressure. Because it took Dr Hammesfahr an hour to massage her spasticly constracted muscles to relax her arm enough to take her blood pressure....more time than any of the other "experts" even took on their entire exam. Terri even tried extra hard to helkp the doctor get her arm relaxed, as she reported. When her father asked her to try even harder to help the doctor take her blood pressure, she relaxed her arm another 20 degrees. This is remarkable. This is not PVS. This is Terri.

Nor did any of the other doctors except Hammesfahr note that Terri was suffering from a chronic and long-time untreated urinary tract infection that would have dulled her ability to be assessed..or that Terri's EEG had been improperly conducted and was therefore not really valid.

Yes, there are a lot of angles to this story, but to me, the most outrageous is the virtual imprisonment of this women and the systematic denial of every opportunity for her to improve her condition, in the interest of the guardian having her die. And all with the permission and even direct involvement of the court in forbidding her every small comfort, much less therapies!!!

Come on- threatening Terri's mother with legal action because she was reported for putting chapstick on her daughter's lips? And because she brought in a CD of Terri's favorite Christmas music to play for her? (only the musicMichael approved was allowed to be played for Terri...Judge Greer!!!!)

In spite of ALL the cards stacked against her- Terri made friends and admirersin the nursing homes and hospices, and among the attorneys and few observers who were able to spend any significant time with her! And with 75% of her brain. Even Dr Hammesfahr noticed and reported that she was discriminating enough to ignore Michael alone in a room full of people .. which must have INFURIATED him. I think her spunk is why I feel like I got to know her and I say >b>Terri YOU GO GIRL, he can't hurt you anymore now and YOU ARE GONNA WIN the judgement of time and history

[eccentric]

Do you favor legalizing suicide? Or just suicide for the disabled?

and what should be done with anorexia patients like Karen Carpenter, who starve themslves to death?

Not flaming, just real questions.

[Doohickey]

I doubt those children saw the inside of a police car, much less a jail. Symbolic acts such has those have no purpose except to polarize.

[Tailgunner Joe]

The point is that the MURDERERS tried to hide behind the "passivity" of their act, claiming that they were not killing anyone, they were just not keeping her alive.

The fact that they violently prevented anyone from feeding her proves that this was all a lie. They wanted her dead and they murdered her.

[Doohickey]

Joe, here's what I think:

I wanted Terri kept alive. If Terri was truly PVS, she wouldn't have cared. If she weren't, she would have relished the opportunity to live.

I think the Congress and the President of the United States acted to the very limit of their Constitutional powers. Any further action on their part would have been overreaching.

I think Florida law is screwed up and needs to be changed.

I think the Schindlers did themselves and Terri a disservice by surrounding themselves with media whores like Randall Terry, Jay Sekulow, Larry Klayman and *gasp* Jesse Jackson.

Lastly, I think that symbolic acts using children and "made for TV" arrests are disgusting and counter-productive.

So, we agree with what the outcome should have been but I think we would disagree with the means.

[balrog666]

The point is that the MURDERERS tried to hide behind the "passivity" of their act, claiming that they were not killing anyone, they were just not keeping her alive. The fact that they violently prevented anyone from feeding her proves that this was all a lie. They wanted her dead and they murdered her.

You say that like it was bad thing.

[Servant of the 9]

Do you favor legalizing suicide? Or just suicide for the disabled?

It's kinda hard to prosecute the dead.

I think suicide is a basic right. I think it doesn't matter whether you can do it yourself, or have to leave instructions for a friend to help you out in an emergency.
I think any of us ought to have access to the drugs necessary for us or our friends to do the job instantly and painlessly.

The Young British soldier

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier _of_ the Queen!

 -- Rudyard Kipling

So9

[Conserve_Freedom2]

I am healthy and capable of living on about 75% support for another decade or so. At the point where I require 100% support to live, at the point when nurses must physically remove crap from my bowels, at the point when I would require a communicator to talk if I could type or sign, I wish to die peacefully, with what I have left of my dignity. Who the hell am I?

I have Friedreich's Ataxia that assigns a date for my death about 66% sooner than is normal. Before that point, I will be reduced to a vegetative state similar to that of Mrs. Schiavo. I do not wish to be publicized, do not wish to be put on display for thousands of mocking eyes, do not want the pity of every wannabe who want to be somebody by protesting to have my misery, my torture, my life, prolonged.

Nor do I wish to be starved to death, as evangelicals lobbying for the law which gives more time for a "miracle" to happen requires. What I desire is for my existence to end, when I am thirty, there will likely be no hope for me. I do not want a court battle, I do not want the federal government to infringe on states' rights (as happened when, last week, the feds ruled that the Schiavos be able to appeal to the federal courts) on my behalf. What I want is a quite shot - painless, tearless, and forceless - to end my suffering and save my dignity.

[thinkingman129]

You expressed my concern as well.

Thank you.

[ViLaLuz]

For one thing, bigamists husbands should be required to SHUT UP.

To be a bigamist he would had to marry ..shacking-up is NOT marriage...whether you like it or not...

OK, how about adulterous husbands creating conflicts of interest?

[Tailgunner Joe]

Then do it yourself, don't drag anyone else into it.

[eccentric]

Do you favor legalizing suicide? Or just suicide for the disabled?

It's kinda hard to prosecute the dead.

I think suicide is a basic right. I think it doesn't matter whether you can do it yourself, or have to leave instructions for a friend to help you out in an emergency. I think any of us ought to have access to the drugs necessary for us or our friends to do the job instantly and painlessly.

So when Police see someone on the edge of the Golden Gate Bridge, should they leave them? Or haul them off to an official suicide facility?

The problem with helping people kill themselves unrestricted, is murder being passed off as suicide.

[Saundra Duffy]

I do not hold out much hope for this to succeed and it's too late for Terri.

[ReeWalker]

OK, how about adulterous husbands creating conflicts of interest?

That should be done...
I also believe that the whole mess could have been worked out..If the 2 men (Mr. Shindler and Mr. Schavio) hadn't both gotten on a testosterone high and decided neither one was gonna give an inch.

[hocndoc]

Show me these people who would "make it illegal to refuse treatment, any treatment, either viva voce if concious or via living will if not.

Given half a chance, they will keep the unwilling hooked to tubes by force and in painful useless treatments as long as possible."

Why is it so important to you that Terri Schiavo had to be forbidden nutrition and hydration by *natural* means, under threat of government guns and arrest?

[Servant of the 9]

So when Police see someone on the edge of the Golden Gate Bridge, should they leave them? Or haul them off to an official suicide facility?

Well, they ought to make sure they aren't gonna land on anyone below, or obstruct traffic, but other than that, leave them alone

The problem with helping people kill themselves unrestricted, is murder being passed off as suicide.

I have no problem with the local authorities monitoring the situation to prevent abuses, as long as it isn't an excuse for regulation or restriction.
The reason for having the drugs made available to the individual or their designated friend is to avoid having Doctors killing their patients.
The body and then the papers are gonna end up at the Medical Examiner's Office and eventually in Probate Court. Plenty of time then to sniff out any murderers after the fact.
We deal with other murderers after the fact, why not any that happen this way.

SO9

[hocndoc]

You do not have the "right to die." That's like saying you have the right to fall if you jump off a cliff. You will die. You will fall if you jump off a cliff.

Review the US Supreme Court opinions about end of life decisions.

You have the inalienable right to life and liberty, which includes the right not to be assaulted by unwanted intervention and invasion of your body.

What you do not have is the right to call on laws, government guns and regulated technology to cause your death. And no one else has the right to cause your death by forbidding you any nutrition or hydration by natural means or to forbid a caretaker from providing it to you if you have not specifically stated that you would consider such as an assault.

[Servant of the 9]

Show me these people who would "make it illegal to refuse treatment, any treatment, either viva voce if concious or via living will if not.

I referenced the article from the Weekly Standard in my post, and two people promptly posted here agreeing with it.
Are you dense or what?

Why is it so important to you that Terri Schiavo had to be forbidden nutrition and hydration by *natural* means, under threat of government guns and arrest?

The question is a complete non sequitur.
So you won't have to look it up, that means it has nothing to do with this thread or with my posts.

So9